470 Build - Yet another

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Cazbah362

Cazbah362

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So - just try to get my Barracuda out "by" this summer. Car has TKO600 and slowly working towards a MS3 pro EFI system. InTanks tank, fuel pump, Widebands, fuel system and all the sensors in place. Waiting for intake to be completed.

400 block, .20 over with 440 source 470 (10.34/1 = 88cc heads) kit.
Zero deck
Erson hydraulic roller - attached cam card
452's with 2.18 valves, back cut and set up for the Erson roller
440 chain/gears
Ultra HP 750
*Torker Intake
*1.6 from Hughes or if budget wans 440 Source

Since I will not have a chance to dyno, what are your thoughts on the build's power. Heads are the weak-link. However, I believe once the fuel-injection in place, it will well scavenge some power and driveablity.

Thoughts

CP
 

Attachments

  • 470 Erson Cam.pdf
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My guess 470 hp @ 5500 and 500 lbs-ft
 
EFI can't provide more airflow. With the heads being stock with big valves I don't see it going too far past 530-540 tops.
 
Moper, agree wont provide more airflow, however it will help control other aspects such as timing, fuel distribution (multi-port), and stable air/fuel mixture which can adapt. This is especially important for me due to altitude.

But agree - heads limit what is can but fully provided or obtained.
 
Were the bowls blended into the VJ when the seats were opened up? Any other porting work done? S/F....Ken M
 
moper said:
EFI can't provide more airflow. With the heads being stock with big valves I don't see it going too far past 530-540 tops.
Click to expand...

OH SO CORRECT.

And if the throats and bowls weren't corrected........he just lost airflow, even at the first lifts. We worry about shrouding the valve with the combustion chamber, but what about shrouding the throat/bowl with the valve?
 
That cam has a lot of duration and with 1.6 rockers the lift will be plenty for a hydraulic
roller too. I'll say 520 hp with 620 hp if you switch to the TFS heads in the future.
 
You can get that much power with barely touched stock heads ?
 
273 said:
You can get that much power with barely touched stock heads ?
Click to expand...
On this one I think you will, properly machined and assembled. The heads are more than
"barely touched" (452's with 2.18 valves, back cut and set up for the Erson roller) and
remember this is a 470; not a 400 or 440.

Similar engines (compression, camshaft etc. - more than one) have been reportedly making
620-660 hp with the TFS heads and I doubt that the heads are worth more than 100 - 120 hp
over his prepped 452's.

Lets here from IQ52 and Mike at MRL on their opinions.
 
Cubic inches don't mean squat if the heads are flow handicapped. A typical stock 452 head will flow about 220-230cfm @ .550" lift. Put a 2.18 valve in it and the flows drop to to 218-225cfm (WHAT? Yes I've tested it!). Blend the throat "properly" and you'll get 225-240cfm.

A good port job on a 452 head and you get 260cfm @ .550" lift and we're all the way to 520HP.

A 452 head that flows some 280-290cfm @ .500-.600 lift, with a solid roller 256/260 @ .050 and .590" lift in a 451 stroker @ 9.5:1 compression, single plain intake, 950 cfm 4bbl
and you'll go 600-620HP @ 6,100 rpm on a liberal dyno (been there).

Here.............http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?102998-440-toy-before-the-572-twin-turbo&highlight=440+572..........remember this with the Victor heads?

Can you gain 100HP with the TrickFlow heads? Depends upon the camshaft. We switched heads on a 440 using a 509 cam from stock iron heads (230cfm) to ported iron heads that flowed 260cfm and gained 62HP.

How much power will the OP's engine make? Nobody knows. What do the 452 heads flow?
 
DR HEMI said:
On this one I think you will, properly machined and assembled. The heads are more than
"barely touched" (452's with 2.18 valves, back cut and set up for the Erson roller) and
remember this is a 470; not a 400 or 440.

Similar engines (compression, camshaft etc. - more than one) have been reportedly making
620-660 hp with the TFS heads and I doubt that the heads are worth more than 100 - 120 hp
over his prepped 452's.

Lets here from IQ52 and Mike at MRL on their opinions.
Click to expand...


I made 615 hp and 580 tq years ago w/ported 906`s and a solid Isky cam and an 850(flowed 930) demon carb..................:burnout:
 
I didn't realize that big block heads were that good it wasn't until recently that I found out they had better valve angles than sb mother mopar knew what she was doing.

Makes me more tempted to squeeze one in my early A
 
They "can be" that good. They are not as Mopar produced them. It's the cost of restoring the wear items, then modifying them to be "that good", coupled with a lack of any decent chamber and potential weight savings that makes aftermarket heads more economical in almost any scenario.
 
Thanks all, again agree, heads are the weak link in this build. And my "guesstimates" would be about 530ish. Really right now my focus is not on making HP/TQ but getting this project moving. Engine builder jail has really set me back along with new job out of town. Always nice to have smart people comment and point you in the right direction - please keep it coming.

CP
 
452's, like all 'as cast' heads, vary. The set of 452's I'm playing with did 257cfm at .600 with a 2.19" 7mm valve and a 55 degree 5 angle seat, with just bowl/blend work. I progressed onward from there and initially lost flow as I opened up the port. I got tired of re-positioning the heads on the flowbench, so the project is on hold until the fixtures are completed. We have some Brzezinski fixtures on the bench for SBC's and SBF's and hopefully the BBM stuff should be done in the next few weeks and I can get back to work on the heads. S/F...Ken M
 
Just for my curiosity, do you know what the bobweight was on your 470? The 451 I'm building is 2398gms and that seems fairly heavy considering the pistons are 501gms. These Manley rods are just heavy as Hell, I guess. S/F....Ken M
 
Ech06 - Say's 2290 for the bobweight, piston weight is 593 (Icons) rod big end weight 568 (I believe they are Scat). RLTW - CP.
 
OK,thanks. Your rods are 2.200BE and .990 pin, correct? I'll have to look into this further, something seems amiss. S/F...Ken M
 
The bobweight on my 470 is 2222 grams. I used SCAT I beam rods and Diamond pistons.
 
Just for the database, we dyno'd a mild 512 RB with hydraulic roller (230'ish at .050) and basically untouched (we touched up the VJ and made sure everything was OK) 440 source heads and eddie 6 pak manifold, 550'ish HP and 600+ft-lbs torque. I was doing something else in the shop, so I don't have hard data. Street car, never going to have enough traction, owner was happy.

So gonna guess about 520hp where you run out of airflow. S/F....Ken M
 
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