5 3/4 psi fuel pressure too high?

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stumblinhorse

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Got my pressure gauge on. Runs rich at all rpms on my 69 318 with a Edelbrock 600 on a stealth intake. Mostly stock engine. Pressure bounces around 5.75. Do I need to lower the pressure with a regulator? Or should I look for other ways to lean it out?
 
Pressure sounds OK. If it's rich all of the time make sure the choke plate is opening all the way. Then I would check the float level. Also make sure you have good spark. Weak spark can make it look like the engine is running rich.
 
That thread said 5 is ideal and it should hold 8. I am now down 4 jet sizes on primary and secondary to get leaner numbers and I am running a 5 sizes larger rod. So it must be float level?
 
6 is fine . remove top and remove needles and let some fuel flow to flush out any dirt. set floats lower. maybe hotter plugs and more ignition advance.
 
That thread said 5 is ideal and it should hold 8.
A Carter - Edelbrock must be under 7 or the bowl may overfill. Whether it is 5 or 6, or even 3 has little effect on the AFR. All that matters is the tank is refilled with water, or in this case fuel.
I am now down 4 jet sizes on primary and secondary to get leaner numbers and I am running a 5 sizes larger rod. So it must be float level?

Here. read How it works.
Carburetion Fundamentals & Facts (Session 273) from the Master Technician's Service Conference

Are you testing on a drag strip - Wide open throttle in top gears? or street driving? Can't do it all at once. One step at a time.
Set fuel level.
Get idle = Adjust idle mix when fully warmed up. Strongest vacuum or best rpm, then a tad richer (in gear if automatic)
Check steady highway driving, lower speed then especially higher speed. Change rods etc per Eddy Guide Chart for your model. If its too lean it will surge and die. Note the mph and rpm that changin rods has an effect.
Wide Open Throttle at the drag strip. Adjust Primary jets and Secondaries.
Opening throttle from a stop. Accelerator pump adjustments if needed.

Check the spark plugs for carbon (too rich) and any tiny specs of metal on the porcelain (detonation - too much timing under load) and any other signs of what's happening in the chamber.
 
Here's the manual with the charts. http://edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/install/1000/1404_manual.pdf
Although it doesn't change what you have to do, if you are referencing an AFR gage beware Figure #1 is not really correct. Part throttle acceleration AFRs go leaner than cruising AFRs. Near full throttle and high load, AFRs go much richer, and it should be steady through the run as long as the throttle is held wide open.
 
Keep the pump pressure,; it is at that pressure level partly to make the needle/seat/float system work well. If you have never set the floats, then you get to start all over; it is the step that effects every other setting. And it can be used to trim the rich/lean a bit. It may not be float level, but you start everything there.

I just re-read your post from about 1 month ago. Is this still the rich idle condition problem? The non-idle numbers that you had before were not too far off... what numbers are you seeing now?

I see you use an AFR and it sounds like you know to have the engine fully warmed up. And I see you were at around the #27 setting on the 1405 chart. That is a good start but you may need to move further down and left on the chart. Your density altitude is around 9000' at 60F and 30F dew point, which is nominally around 75-75% of sea level air density. So you'll be making some significant moves to lean this carb.

What size rods and jets are actually in there now? I can't see going 5 size fatter on rods from the stock rod for that carb; there aren't that many fatter steps that I can see...?? So let's makes sure what you have there.

What color of metering spring is in there?
 
@nm9stheham what is installed is a 1425 .092 in the primary and I have a 1423 .086 in the secondary. I have a 1446 .068 x .042 rod in there. It has the stock spring still which is the orange 5” spring. I have left that since the drivability has been fine. Transitions is fine, just rich.

What I have done in the last month is play with the IMS screws. I had a problem with Alternator and VR that I fixed. I was hoping I had weak spark. That was not the case since it didn’t really help. I am also now at a RN14YC plug.

Now I will recheck the floats. I checked it on original install. And it was right around a 7/16 drill bit, but might go to a 1/2”.

Thanks for the help.
 
Make sure the floats are level with the top. If I’m remembering right I think it’s 1/2 inch. Also make sure the float drop is correct. Kim
 
@nm9stheham what is installed is a 1425 .092 in the primary and I have a 1423 .086 in the secondary. I have a 1446 .068 x .042 rod in there. It has the stock spring still which is the orange 5” spring. I have left that since the drivability has been fine. Transitions is fine, just rich.

What I have done in the last month is play with the IMS screws. I had a problem with Alternator and VR that I fixed. I was hoping I had weak spark. That was not the case since it didn’t really help. I am also now at a RN14YC plug.

Now I will recheck the floats. I checked it on original install. And it was right around a 7/16 drill bit, but might go to a 1/2”.

Thanks for the help.
Interestingly, you have decreased the clear flow area between the main jet and the large part of the rod by 25% from the factory setup. So that is a lot.... about twice the area decrease that the #27 setting would reduce it, in fact.

But I have to wonder if the spring is too stiff.... you don't have a lot of vacuum there and if the rod is lifting too soon, then it'll be rich. (I don't know exactly what the vacuum numbers in the Edelbrock charts mean for that rod lift.... is it the start of the lifting of the rod, or when the rod is fully lifted?) What is the vacuum at cruise and 2500 or 3000 RPM? With your low air density, it is going to be darned low; the throttle will have to be more open to get the same HP, which will make it even lower so the spring may get into the action and start lifting the rods.

Is you rich condition at WOT or under light cruise or heavy cruise or when?
 
@nm9stheham It is rich on heavy throttle and haven’t done much WOT. I am at 13 or so at light cruise. I have never checked vacuum at 2500. At best I will get 14” at idle, but at that vacuum it is way too rich at idle. I thought about a lighter spring but everything I read said it would not have an impact on lean/rich of the carb, just transitions. Maybe that is wrong. I am going to set float to a 1/2” and go down in secondary to a 1422 .082 tomorrow late day and post results.
 
5" is very deep in the throttle. That's not good or bad, just saying its going to be something around 50% throttle or more - like a steep uphill or accelerating for a highway pass. Agree its not instantaneous. If it was being logged with throttle position and manifold vacuum, we'd see it go leaner and leaner until the step up begins. My guess is its fully open at and below 5" Hg and go close to 12.5 to 13:1 That seems to be how the holley and motorcraft power valves work out.
 
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At best I will get 14” at idle, but at that vacuum it is way too rich at idle.
Not sure what you're doing. 14" in Neutral is decent with a cam and mods. If its leaving carbon on the plugs, run the idle mixture screws in 'til the rpms and vacuum drop. Then back off 1/8 to 1/4 turn. It needs to be a bit richer for power when placed in gear. Also it will lose some rpm and vacuum - and with loss of vacuu mit will go leaner in gear. IF your AFR meter is correct, classic (non-emmissions) idle mixtures will be 12.5 to 13.5:1 for best engine efficiency. I say IF because AFR meters are an interpretation based on the O2 in the exhaust. Timing can anything else that messes with the combustion can change the O2 left over.
 
@Mattax It is a manual transmission with stock cam. If I set the idle mixture screws that way I am 10.5 or so at 600 rpms. So I close them down to get to about 12 on the afr and adjust the fast idle up.
 
OK. So you are saying the meter reads 10.5 AFR at 600 rpm when the mix screws are adjusted for max vacuum?
Then when trying leaning the AFR, the engine loses rpm and vacuum? I assume you mean idle stop screw, not fast idle screw - which works with the choke.
So if you didn't have the meter, would it seem good? If its really too rich, it will be lazy.
Also the spark plugs will be getting carbon fouled. Take a look at a couple. They'll show what is going on in there, and reveal if its very different than the meter.

Also, what are you using for a distributor? I don't know if the trucks were setup different, but 318s in '69 Dodge cars were setup for idling on relatively little initial timing - like 0* BTDC. That will effect vacuum and rpm too.
 
@Mattax I have a blue box oem style electronic ignition. I timed it using the method of adding time until the idle stopped increasing. I ended up at 14*. Engine runs fine no detonation or pinging. Just changed from 12 to 14 heat range plugs.

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@Mattax I have a blue box oem style electronic ignition. I timed it using the method of adding time until the idle stopped increasing. I ended up at 14*. Engine runs fine no detonation or pinging. Just changed from 12 to 14 heat range plugs.

View attachment 1715180310
Sorry to say but that is one of those methods someone makes up and thinks it works but it doesn't.
* Too much timing will only ping under load. Part throttle load like accelerating up an incline, or full throttle in upper gears. When its borderline, it may only show up when the engine is fully heat heat soaked - like after an hour of driving the mountains or interstates.
* Way too much timing under light load and low throttle may show up as the opposite of smooth running; described as trailer hitching or fish biting.
* Yes the engine will run faster and even pull more vacuum with more advance, in neutral. But there's no load other than the internal friction. So we can not set base timing on that - especially with a truck that we wish to drive at walking speed. With an automatic, this shows up as soon as the selector is placed in drive. RPMs drop because even the tiny increase in load needed to turn the torquflite is too much and it shows the timing and fuel mix is not producing any power to speak of.

Those spark plugs don't look like they've been excessively rich for whatever they've been through. Get them in good light and check close with a magnefier for shiny metal specks in the porcelain. Those bright specks of metal would be indicators detonation. I suspect they are fine.
They also make me doubt the accuracy of that 10.5 AFR. Idle mixes can be trickier to read. Exhaust sometimes come back in - especially with some emissions era cams. Compression and heat in the chamber is low. The advanced timing puts less heat into the chamber walls also reducing the initial heat needed to vaporize the fuel in the chamber and burn it well. CO meter would be better in this case but they'e not common and I don't think you need to spend the money on one.
14 of course will accumulate less carbon than than 12s.

With a stock engine, use the factory specs as a baseline.
What distributor? Where did it come from?
Timing curves vary considerably.
In general a 318 is relatively efficient starting at low rpm. In '68 Plymouth spec'd non-emissions initial timing at 5* BTC and emissions version at TDC; 625 rpm.
In either case, it should be around 14* at 1400 rpm. You can give or take a couple degrees, even maybe as much as 5 * more advance depending fuel etc, but that's a reasonable baseline unless the truck engines were different.
A factory electronic distributor for a car is almost certainly going to have a longer, quicker initial curve to hit that 14* by 1400 rpm (because the initial is set at 0*). But again a truck may be different.

I'd have no problem testing out with an initial of 10* around 600 - 650 rpm if you want to experiment. Maybe obvious, but set the initial with the hose to the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged. (Golf tee is handy).
 
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Thanks for the note on where it is rich, OP. That helps.

Let's all keep in mind that the OP is at 7000' altitude and with the current typical early summer temps, his density altitude is close to 9000'. It is a whole different game than in near sea level. So the vacuum reading of 14" at 600 RPM is pretty good, and would be a higher reading at sea level. The absolute atmospheric pressure there is around 23" rather than close to 30" at sea level; when closing the throttle at high speeds, I bet it barely gets above 20" vacuum.

If you can get a vacuum reading at light cruise on level ground, that would be a good reference point for tuning versus the standard tuning setups. A long vacuum hose is all that is needed. Somewhere in the 12-14" range is the norm around here at 1500" AMSL around 2500 RPM, and with a mild cam. I always rig up a vacuum gauge while tuning so I can decide which phase the carb is operating in for given conditions and be able to know what is changing (like when the power valve is opening). You can get some fair correlation between the vacuum gauge and the AFR, and learn a lot.

As for the spring for the rods, the same applies. Since the air density is so low, around 75% of sea level, then the throttle is going to have to be further open for a given power or torque setting. That will lower the vacuum levels. OP, as for the being good at transition, being moderately rich all across the transition will not have a stumble. It is usually where it goes lean that you will get the stumble. So you may be too far into lifting the rods all along and not know it. Just something for you to consider.

Those plugs don't look all that bad at all, to me. Certainly not waaay rich, though you can't see down into the base of the insulator. I am assuming you just pulled them after running and then driving back and shutting off? To get true plug readings for your hard throttle situation, you need to put some fresh plugs in there with the engine warmed up already, then go out and do a hard throttle run. Then just cut the ignition while still in the throttle, then close the throttle and drift to a stop and pull the plugs and examine them.

@Mattax It is a manual transmission with stock cam. If I set the idle mixture screws that way I am 10.5 or so at 600 rpms. So I close them down to get to about 12 on the afr and adjust the fast idle up.
That kinda goes along with what the Edelbrock manual says.... set for peak RPM and then back the idle settings off to the lean side to get 20 RPM drop in idle speed. I always seem to get better operation at a setting a bit different from peak RPM idle mixture.
 
6000 ft will drop the cylinder pressure somewhere around 30psi from sealevel. That translates to a lotof lost idle-vacuum. The loss of vacuum could trigger the power system very early.
Imo you may be leaning out the mains to compensate for an early opening power system; bad idea. Eliminate the power system by pulling the springs out, and then start over.
I would put a vacuum gauge on the intake and run it up into the cab where you can see it. Then take the springs right out and take her for a roadtest to see what happens, and when it happens.
Then put the lightest ones you got in there, and compare.

But first
You cannot tune the idle/off-idle with main fueling either; there is no factory adjustment for that,except for the mixture screws. Make sure the mechanical advance is not seized, and that the Vcan is correctly plumbed and working. Then run the rpm up to 2000/2200 with the fast idle cam;make sure the metering rods are staying down. Then reset the mixture screws for fastest fast-idle speed, on whatever step it took to initiate the target 2000/2200 rpm. That is the amount of fuel the engine wants at that rpm, at whatever timings she is seeing. Kick the idle back down. Now compare this new mixture setting to the starting setting. If they are not the same, then you are gonna have to deal with that. If the mixture screws needed to be bottomed out, or nearly spun all the way out, you have a serious problem;deal with that, BEFORE you do anything else. The idle system is always job #1.
Your tools for adjusting this are; timing,wet fuel level, Idle feed restrictions and air bleeds.Before you start; Make sure the secondaries are closed up tight but not sticking, and that you do not have any air getting into the intake from any other sources except; the PCV and the primary throttle valves.
 
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