340sFastback
Well-Known Member
@72bluNblu Yes Silver Sport bellhousing. Its real bulky on those two upper edges. Maybe a tad of material, 1/8" or so, could be removed without affecting strength?
'69 Barracuda T56 swap, floor, cross member
- Thread starter 340sFastback
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Hmm. Have you checked the driveline angle at all? Could be sitting up a smidge too high at the tail, and anything would help.
Looking at the transmission mount bolts I really don’t thing the transmission is any further back than mine, not more than a 1/2” for sure. I don’t have that same side shot but you can see how far back the shifter sits, and from the bottom you can see if the transmission was another 1/2” back that next bolt on the shift cover would be behind the crossmember…
@72bluNblu Yes Silver Sport bellhousing. It’s real bulky on those two upper edges. Maybe a tad of material, 1/8" or so, could be removed without affecting strength?
Yeah, the profile on the top of that bellhousing is completely different than the QT, you’re definitely losing vertical clearance in a tight spot already with that bell. Not sure how much you could clearance it, I guess you could measure the thickness at the interference point and see if you could lose some aluminum.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
is there any wiggle room to drop the motor a bit? that and maybe slot the trans crossmember holes where it bolts to the car could get you where you need to be. it won't need much, if you can get a little on the motor and a little on the trans.......
neil.
neil.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
The TTI headers just barely miss the steering linkage so if the engine is lowered the headers will lay right on the steering linkage. Right now trans and bellhousing are pressed hard on the floor and floor is pushed hard on the floor heat duct. The engine would need to drop at least 1/4" or more which would have the headers laying right on the steering linkage. If I went with custom headers yes lowering the engine would solve the problem.
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340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I see your point mine might be farther back then yours but probably less then 1/2" so its not dramatically farther back like I originally thought.
Haven't checked the driveline angle. But rear of trans would have to drop probably way over an inch in order to get trans and bellhousing to clear floor heat duct. Right now I have to jack the trans up to the point where the entire car lifts up on its suspension in order to get the cross member bolts in and even then can only get 3 of the 4 bolts to go through. I can not get a gap in between the trans and trans mount even with trans jacking up to the point entire car is lifted up. The trans will not go up due to steel floor heat duct preventing trans and bell housing from going any higher. I have the entire top of the trans tunnel cut out now which allows me to clearly see trans to tunnel clearances and only clearance issue is up at firewall with the floor heat duct.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
never thought about that but that might be a viable option. Not sure how that would affect torsion bar and steering column alignment though?
Is there any room to shift the engine forward? Like even a tiny bit? Basically not modifying mounts or anything, just loosening the engine mounts and seeing if it will shift forward on the mounts.
I don’t think your engine is too far back, but, because of the angles and locations of the interference points moving it even a 1/4” forward or less would free up vertical space as well. And if that takes a dimple in the headers then you’re in the same boat as all the rest of us.
Same for the driveline angle, I’m not suggesting dropping it an inch in the back, just seeing if the angle is even correct. A 1/4° might not solve your problem, but if you shift the engine forward on the mounts an 1/8” and the driveline down a 1/4° you might find more space than you think. Just fitting/tolerance kind of stuff.
You’d need to lower the torsion bar anchors in the crossmember to do that yeah? Or raise the LCA pivot tube? You can’t put much angle on the bars before they bind. I’m not familiar with all the tricks they used on the hemi cars
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
A lot of ppl put spacers between k frame and frame no issues with torsion bars and steering shaft. But it does change the camber. Usually 1/2" or less spacers don't cause too much of a camber issue. But k frame spacers definitely change drive line angle although ppl who added spacers never complained about vibrations maybe they stayed within angle tolerances.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I put the cherry picker on the engine lift plate, loosened both motor mounts, and moved engine forward as much as I could. I would have to move engine forward 1/4 inch or more to alleviate the clearance issue at floor/heat duct and giant dents in headers would be required. I could widen k frame motor mount slots to allow engine to go more forward but then headers would need big dents to clear steering linkage.
I am going to measure driveline angle and pinion angle before I do anything else.
I wanted to get AC hooked back up for next summer. I removed AC from car back in 1981 due to blown head gasket and never got around to putting it back in car. So really the whole HVAC box needs to be taken out anyway but was hoping do that after trans swap. But leaning toward taking hvac box out now, finish trans swap with hvac box out, then look into modifying floor ducts while hvac box out of the car later one.
But I think its best to measure driveline and axle angles like you suggested verify those are within specs before doing anything else.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
agreed, you'd only need 1/4-1/2" so the torsion bars will be fine. to check just loosen the bolts and slip in some c shaped plywood spacers. once you know it works make up some steel spacers, remove one bolt at a time and fit them. if the trans needs lowering slot the crossmember bolts til you're happy then weld washers to it to cover the slots.
it's only metal, lol.
neil.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Been reading on k frame spacers most ppl say up to 1/2" with an alignment and its fine. Apparently its commonly done by many people with no adverse side affects.
I am going to check engine/trans and pinion angles next. Then maybe temp space that k frame like you suggest and recheck angles. But yeah just 3/8" or so lower I think I can get the required clearance.
Worth a shot anyway.
I wonder if rubber LCA bushings and unboxed LCA’s allow for more misalignment there.
I wouldn’t think you’d have quite that much tolerance with delrin LCA bushings and LCA’s that have been tightened up at the lever arm and boxed. But I haven’t tried it, just thinking out loud
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
My LCA bushings are rubber so prob a lot more flex. Ppl who dropped their k frame never mentioned bushing types. They do say camber is affected because distance between upper and lower control arms is greater. And headers exhaust will hang lower etc. So something to mull over and consider. Driveline angle will help me in that decision too.
Won't be doing anything other then driveline angles for next week or so. I wanna pause and think everything through. Plus body is worn down needs rest at this point.
But that hvac box might be coming out one way or another next because I don't feel like having that floor duct in the way of that tunnel work and no way to tunnel work under floor duct other then weld from under car or panel bond. I think that hvac box needs to be pulled regardless of approach since it needs a rebuild for AC going back in near term and I need it out of the way.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
I would mod the floor and the HVAC box over messing with the K-frame. I think you'll get it no problem that way.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Yeah I was saying above I need to pull the hvac box anyway to get floor duct out of the way of tunnel work. And hvac box needs a rebuild cause I was planning to put AC in before next summer. And AC been unhooked since 1981 and main hvac never been out of the 54 year old car so its all crudded up for sure. Once hvac box out I can cut floor heat duct off and fab a new one that sits 3/4" to 1" higher for the raised tunnel. You'all been telling me make tunnel roomy and now that trans is up in there yeah I want the tunnel to be nice and roomy not tight.
Yeah I'm sure the vast majority of people that have lowered the K have rubber bushings, since most people run rubber bushings. The factory hemi stuff obviously was. And I dunno if it would really be an issue. I know on my cars with Delrin bushings and the LCA tightened up it definitely seems like there's less "wiggle room" when installing the bars, but, like I said I haven't actually tried it. Factory tolerances probably have more of a say in how far you get to go than bushing type anyway.
I think taking the HVAC box out is probably a good idea. I agree with @goldduster318 too, I'd much rather modify the lower ducts than anything else.
Now I'm spending all your money too, but it might be worth considering some of the aftermarket AC systems out there. If you're going to be rebuilding everything anyway, and clearly your car isn't stock, I'm guessing you won't be running the factory boat anchor RV2 set up. So rather than just buying all new stuff for under the hood and making it work it might be worth upgrading the whole system.
I rebuilt the heater box on my Duster and in my Challenger with a DMT kit, it's not bad but it definitely takes time. And the old composite boxes take some work too, I had to do some fiberglass work on my Challenger box. In the grand scheme of things I probably spent too much time on it, considering I don't really care if it's original. Time to dollars I likely would have been better off just buying a complete aftermarket system. Just a thought.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Was planning on a kit from Original Air with Sanden compressor and modern condenser all new under hood and recondition original hvac box with DMT kit. My heater portion of the box I know that is not broken and through the life of the car I been only one that did heater core replacements etc. So I don't think anything is broken under there and all the vacuum still works etc.
I still have all the original under hood AC components box tagged in dry storage in excellent shape. They were pulled in 1981 and car had 72k miles on it so they are nice parts. I just don't want the bulky heavy original compressor back on there. But not selling parts cause its a factory 340 car etc etc etc.
For now I think pull hvac box and put the unit on a shelf and get back to the 6 spd conversion. Then after 6 spd swap done come back to hvac system. That way I can stay focused on the task at hand.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
it'd be quicker to slip in some 1/2" plywood spacers just to check viability than remove the heater unit and mod' the tunnel some more. if you gain the clearance you need just swap in steel spacers and you're done. also you mention the headers will hang lower, that's not the case. the motor is still bolted to the k member the same, all you've done is raise the body by 1/2" up from the k. so in relation to any of the suspension that's close to the ground the headers remain the same.
neil.
neil.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
spacing down the k-frame is going to play havoc on a bunch of things such as:
-Camber curve
-Steering column to box alignment
-torsion bar alignment (you may also be putting them into bending)
-extra stress on LCA bushings which are already a weak point on theser cars
The floor is already being modded. At least with this way, you can get the driveline angles right and also not mess the suspension or anything else up in the process. Changing the heat ducts I think is a very doable mod afterwards.
I've already got 5 years in on mine where I modded the floor but since I don't have an A/C box it was no issue. I also have the Quicktime bellhousing which is probably a little better for clearance, but still its not going to be so bad.
-Camber curve
-Steering column to box alignment
-torsion bar alignment (you may also be putting them into bending)
-extra stress on LCA bushings which are already a weak point on theser cars
The floor is already being modded. At least with this way, you can get the driveline angles right and also not mess the suspension or anything else up in the process. Changing the heat ducts I think is a very doable mod afterwards.
I've already got 5 years in on mine where I modded the floor but since I don't have an A/C box it was no issue. I also have the Quicktime bellhousing which is probably a little better for clearance, but still its not going to be so bad.
You’re putting the headers lower to the ground with respect to the body of the car.
Whether you consider that raising the body or lowering the headers is up to you. I think it’s safe to say most of us set the ride height of the car based on the height of the body and not just the K frame, so, I’d say the headers would be getting closer to the ground because I’d be keeping the body at the same height.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
everybody seems to be forgetting we're talking 1/2", not 3" or more. really, it's 1/2". can we please have some perspective, it won't make the car a dangerous death trap will it. once the alignment is reset the difference will probably be un noticeable. remember...... 1/2".
neil.
neil.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I have to pull the hvac box anyway because I want to get the AC hooked up before next summer. Was hoping to full around with AC after 6 speed swap but its 6 or a 1/2 dozen just pull it out now. Plus even if kframe spacers fix clearance I still need hvac box out of the way because I can not access the trans tunnel that is under the floor heat ducts.
So next steps pull hvac box and check driveline angles.
So next steps pull hvac box and check driveline angles.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Spacers will move kframe and engine down so torsion bars will need to be adjusted to compensate resulting in headers and exhaust hanging lower relative to the body of the car and lower to the ground. Yes its only 1/2 inch but headers exhaust hanging lower falls in the negative affect category as does changing the front end geometry.
But yeah if I was in a big rush kframe spacers mod trans mount lower the whole driveline down is a quick way to get it done and it would work. But quick/easy is a low priority in this case. So if something takes longer to do but results are cleaner better then I am taking the longer more work more time route.
So I am going to pull hvac cause it has to be pulled before next summer anyway. Then measure driveline angles. Then take it from there. If I have to raise tunnel 1/2" under heat duct then mod heat duct to clear tunnel yeah its not simple not easy. But cutting a steel duct, modding, welding, retaining heat/defrost mechanism is something I am plenty capable of getting done.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Its a viable solution and a good suggestion. It comes down to preference of approach and judgement call. I have to pull hvac box anyway before next summer to freshen up for AC install and it has to be pulled to gain access to floor sheet metal under heat duct. So hvac box has to be pulled now its not an optional thing anymore regardless of approach.
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