72 Dart Swinger 3.6L Pentastar +T5

[myduster360]

I found an even tighter fitting bracket that looks better, cheaper too.
I was looking up info on the new 2017 3.6 Atkinson cycle Hybrid and noticed its sleek idler bracket. Its tucked in much tighter to the block.

Item #6 5281294AA BRACKET-IDLER PULLEY- $25
#5 5281301AA PULLEY-IDLER $30
#3 6510224AA BOLT-HEX FLANGE HEAD $2

 

[myduster360]

Preliminary Left Motor motor mount weldment and frame bracket design. Its just a concept with the dimensions eye-balled. Right side will be similar but shorter frame brackets.

 

[myduster360]

The engine was test fitted today to eyeball the general fit and ID any potential issues.
I was worried that there wasn't enough room width wise but it's looking pretty good. The body was easily lowered around the engine with a couple inches on either side to spare.

Right side looks pretty good:

Left side isn't bad either. The LX "manifold" will interfere with the steering column and can't be used but it shows the available room.

My lovely assistant show that there's plenty room for a lightweight master cylinder.

 

[myduster360]

Passenger side shot from the Rear

Driver's side from the rear

 

[HemiDenny]

I enjoy watching your project.......does the amount of motor/oil pan hanging down below the frame rails look to be an issue with ride height?

 

[myduster360]

I enjoy watching your project.......does the amount of motor/oil pan hanging down below the frame rails look to be an issue with ride height?

I'm glad you're enjoying it.

The engine's vertical position has always been determined by the oil pan and the bottom tubes of the QA1 K being on the same plane, for obvious reasons. The pics in post 142,143, they were taken with the oil pan and K resting on the floor.

The pics above, the pan may be ~1/4" lower than the K but that's pretty much what you're seeing here. Fabrication tolerances will come into play as well, so if engine winds up a little lower, well the CG will love it and I won't complain much about adding a little skid plate.

The pinion angle will have some say on the final driveline height, so next on the list is getting the trans bolted to the bell housing.

 

[myduster360]

Another major design criteria that must be factored in for engine height is Idler/Pitman arm & Oil pan clearance. Last time I mocked it up, there wasn't any freedom to lower the engine.

This shot shows how tight the oil pan fits around the QA1 k frame. I fear it would take a miracle if the horizontal offset needed to line up the drivetrain with the axle ALSO fits within this narrow window. Currently, I have the engine ~1.5" to the right to have the bell housing "centered" in the trans tunnel. I'm not sure how close it is to that 1.5" in the pic below.

I need to get the engine off its wooden stand and up against the QA1 K frame, so I can verify any steering issues. I have a 72 and older steering setup too. Since its pitman and idler sockets are inverted, it may provide added clearance around the pan if needed

 

[Scammell]

I was curious to see how the 3.6L Torque and Hp curves compared to common 340/360. I couldn't find a decent factory dyno curve of an old combo but the factory used a different SAE test standard back then anyway, so I replotted a 1999 5.9l Magnum.

Stock for Stock, the Pentastar loses out between 1500-4000rpm but kicks in after 4k and pulls hard to its peak Hp at ~6500rpm.
At 5000rpm, the little 3.6L is up a whopping 150ft-lb and 20hp over the 360!
By 6000rpm the Pentastar hits its peak Hp but the 360 went home early.

4.56 rear end should help out the low speed torque and keep the revs in the power band, while the .63 over drive will turn those rear gears into a cruise friendly 2.87,,,

View attachment 1714982787

I had two friends visit my project yesterday, both are ex-Chrysler Australia Engineers who also did time with Chrysler in Detroit. One of them joined Chrysler in 1964, the other in maybe 1967. They love MOPAR and it's locked in their blood. They are both so impressed with the Pentastar 3.6L.
One of them keeps a Dodge Van with transverse Pentastar in the USA and travels from Australia then uses it for three summer months holidaying as though he were a Gypsy, every year … that was his intro to the 3.6L and it was unconditional and undying love within the first 30 minutes of driving it, and that has remained for the past 5 years. He's 70 years old and he'll be back in the 2018 USA summer yet again.
I have introduced them to this forum and they like it.

After the visit to my shop yesterday and lots of talking over lunch, one sent this email after going home to the other engineer who visited …

"It is a shame I do not have the Specific Fuel Consumption for each engine, which really completes the Pentastar 3.6L comparison with the Motori 2.8L Turbo Common Rail Diesel.
I love the flat torque curve (Variable Valve Timing) of the Pentastar, which is really noticeable in terms of the driving experience and fuel efficiency, like a diesel!
Also I would like to get hold of a plot of HP, Torque and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption for the un-liked 2.8L L4 VM Motori Turbo Common Rail Diesel in my Australian Chrysler Grand Voyager for comparison.
And to top it off for the Pentastar, 150 kgs and so small. A real shame we couldn't get that Pentastar in the Australian Chrysler van.
That 'myduster360' graph picture tells the story, a great story!"

So, MD360, for the Chrysler 2.8L L4 VM Motori Turbo Common Rail Diesel, I wonder where we can get the same info you plotted in your V6 vs V8 graph. With that info, we'll have enough info to carry us through another lunch engagement.

 

[Scammell]

I've got plans of doing the same thing but instead, beware all Chevy fans, to an old '52 Chevy coupe that I was left when my dad passed away. I had very similar ideas, light weight, great power, and I was also thinking of gas mileage.

A '52 Chevy Coupe's curb weight from the factory was about 3300 lbs. This engine and either of the 5-speeds above with bell housing will weigh less that 450 lbs dry. With the incredibly short length of this engine I can place it way back and achieve nearly the same 50-50 weight distribution front and back that I have in my 2011 Charger. (Yeah, that's how I got hooked on the 3.6. LOL)

I plan to chop it and drop it with an updated frame and suspension and then supercharge it as well. In all, I should be able to get this car down under 3000 lbs pretty easy and with approximately 400-425 HP at the wheels, it should scream... all while still getting over 30 mpg.

I was at SEMA and I talked to the guys at Sprintex but RIPP didn't have a booth. I talked to a guy with a Jeep with a RIPP on it and he said the RIPP guys were there. He tried to get them over but they didn't arrive before I left. What this guy told me, and I'm dumbing this down so I don't get anyone in trouble if it's not condoned by FCA, is that a certain knowledgeable someone within FCA is working with one of our favorite tuner manufacturers to get full control of the ECM. If it's true, it sounded as though that would allow us the ability to control even the 8-speed autos but I can't confirm anything.

That aside, I was thinking to setting this car up for the potential to do autocross as well. Whether I do or not, it would be one fun right that I could also feel comfortable driving completely across country in as well.

A guy from Diablo Sport also referred me to the Holley guys about a display they have that could integrated into your dash. It's amazing that they can display almost everything you want to watch of one small screen but the downside is that it appeared to only come with a blue screen and black digital graphics. And I'm talking old-school digital, like square and block type letter and numbers. It would be awesome if they could leap forward and give it a high res screen. My desire was to find something that you could select the digital gauges you wanted, be able to size them to your liking, and arrange them however you wanted. I don't know that I'll be able to find that but it would sure revolutionize integrating these new engines into retro-mods.

Anyway, I love this idea and a appreciate all that you've shared!

Mark

I've got plans of doing the same thing but instead, beware all Chevy fans, to an old '52 Chevy coupe that I was left when my dad passed away. I had very similar ideas, light weight, great power, and I was also thinking of gas mileage.

A '52 Chevy Coupe's curb weight from the factory was about 3300 lbs. This engine and either of the 5-speeds above with bell housing will weigh less that 450 lbs dry. With the incredibly short length of this engine I can place it way back and achieve nearly the same 50-50 weight distribution front and back that I have in my 2011 Charger. (Yeah, that's how I got hooked on the 3.6. LOL)

I plan to chop it and drop it with an updated frame and suspension and then supercharge it as well. In all, I should be able to get this car down under 3000 lbs pretty easy and with approximately 400-425 HP at the wheels, it should scream... all while still getting over 30 mpg.

I was at SEMA and I talked to the guys at Sprintex but RIPP didn't have a booth. I talked to a guy with a Jeep with a RIPP on it and he said the RIPP guys were there. He tried to get them over but they didn't arrive before I left. What this guy told me, and I'm dumbing this down so I don't get anyone in trouble if it's not condoned by FCA, is that a certain knowledgeable someone within FCA is working with one of our favorite tuner manufacturers to get full control of the ECM. If it's true, it sounded as though that would allow us the ability to control even the 8-speed autos but I can't confirm anything.

That aside, I was thinking to setting this car up for the potential to do autocross as well. Whether I do or not, it would be one fun right that I could also feel comfortable driving completely across country in as well.

A guy from Diablo Sport also referred me to the Holley guys about a display they have that could integrated into your dash. It's amazing that they can display almost everything you want to watch of one small screen but the downside is that it appeared to only come with a blue screen and black digital graphics. And I'm talking old-school digital, like square and block type letter and numbers. It would be awesome if they could leap forward and give it a high res screen. My desire was to find something that you could select the digital gauges you wanted, be able to size them to your liking, and arrange them however you wanted. I don't know that I'll be able to find that but it would sure revolutionize integrating these new engines into retro-mods.

Anyway, I love this idea and a appreciate all that you've shared!

Mark

Mark,
Fantastic stuff. Hope I haven't missed any of subsequent posts that you may have made since.
Have you made any progress on a Pentastar 8-speed swap into the Chev ?
Jim

 

[Scammell]

You lured me from the interwebs today looking into doing close to the same setup. Looking at buying a 67-72 dart to put the 3.6 into. At first i wanted a 4bt but the v6 is so light. From what ive seen the vin parts should match and have every computer the car used since they all have to talk to each other. That was tge issue gasmonkey had and had to cave in and add the parts. RoadKill on you tube did the same thing and explain everything with a hellcat charger motor. Looking forward seeing your progress. Hopefully ill have a dart this year!! Have a 72 charger in the works.

Any movement your end on your desire to get a Dart/3.6 project going ?
Jim

 

[Scammell]

Honestly, getting the 3.6l to run on the factory PCM isn't any different than a Hemi. I just don't see the cost/benefit of using an MS over factory.

I'm trying to use the TIPM and integrate it into the whole car(dash, lights, power) which may be over complicating things. I've already sent a PCM to my colleagues at Diablo for "Gas Monkey Hellcat" special but that PCM wound up being junk once I got it plugged in(various sensor fault codes). So I got a manual trans PCM to replace it. I think between my HpTuners, Diablo and vin flashing, it should eventually work.

The biggest hurdle as of today is getting the engine IN THE CAR by either (see post #56)
A) Redesigning the entire front suspension(Rack & pinion + forward facing steering arms.)
or
B) Just ditching the factory AC compressor, fabbing an A/C delete idler and moving on. Ditching the A/C is more true to the whole lightweight build concept anyway.


Regardless I've shelved the hard choices and decided to weld in the subframe connectors, instead.

View attachment 1715053285

G'day MD360,
What is that prop in the photo, the prop with the red support atop the screw threaded shaft ?
What is the generic name for the device, and what are both it's extended and collapsed heights ? I can't see much in the photo.
Jim

 

[Scammell]

We are getting close to dropping out the Pentastar from the 2016 Jeep WK2 Grand Cherokee.

As we have gone along disconnecting and removing everything from the car and from the wiring loom, beginning at the tailgate and working forward, we have also been checking often that the engine continues to start as we go along.

Below you can see some if the huge wiring loom where it crosses the floor behind the front seats, in the centre behind the console.

 

[myduster360]

I got the 3.6L NAG1 bellhousing 3D laser scanned so i can finish up the adapter plate to the T5.

 

[Scammell]

I got the 3.6L NAG1 bellhousing 3D laser scanned so i can finish up the adapter plate to the T5.


View attachment 1715119016

What is an indicative cost for such a great 3D scan job ?

 

[sag]

This is a neat idea. I have a 3.6 in the wife's avenger and will say it's a peppy little thing. Also have an extra one I picked up for $600.00 because she puts a lot of miles on it. That's not bad considering when her alternator went out it cost about $270.00

Keep up the good work

 

[myduster360]

Worked a bit more on the T5 adapter plate and trans mounting.

I have a prototype being laser cut out of .06" 430 stainless sheet metal. I initially planned to cut the adapter out of 5/16 aluminum plate but I might just stack up a few sheets of the stainless to get to the needed thickness. It't be a bit heavier but cheaper/quicker and probably stronger since its all sandwiched together.

3 12mm bolts will come in from the inside of the Bell and bolt through the transmission and fasten with nuts.

The lower passenger bolt hangs off the Bell and will bolt through the 5/16" Adapter plate.

2 other 8mm bolts through the Bell near the lower right 12mm to add support.

NOTE: The T5 trans mount has a ~5 degree slant to the left. This should put the shifter in a more comfortable position.

 

[myduster360]

I got the .06" 430 Stainless cut for the Adapter plate.
4 sheets are spot welded together. I have 2 extra sheets to dial in the exact thickness.

 

[myduster360]

Well this sucks,,,

Otherwise it looks pretty good

 

[MuuMuu101]

What's wrong?

 

[bkd]

^^^^what MuuMuu101 said

 

[myduster360]

The bearing retainer does not protrude through the adaptor plate far enough to ensure that the trans is properly centered in the Bell housing and aligned with the crank, especially since it needs another .06" plate.

For some reason I thought it was thicker. I'm working on a solution.

 

[JDMopar]

How about getting a round ring made that matches the OD of the bearing retainer, and to the depth you need? Stack it on top of the existing retainer, and bevel the bolt holes so you could use counter sunk allen head bolts. I've enjoyed watching your build.

 

[myduster360]

How about getting a round ring made that matches the OD of the bearing retainer, and to the depth you need? Stack it on top of the existing retainer, and bevel the bolt holes so you could use counter sunk allen head bolts. I've enjoyed watching your build.

Yep that's the solution I'm working on but a bit less complex and entirely "off the shelf".

It just so happens that everyone who's ever swapped a TKO into their Mopar using a Quicktime bell, never uses the EXACT diameter spacer I need for my T5, 4.910". The QT bell comes with 2 and the TKO uses the smaller 4.86" spacer.

What I don't know is if its thick enough to solve this issue. I think I'll need at least 3/8". If it is thick enough, Ill just cut the Bell to the OD of the QT spacer.

I've already been in contact with a couple guys on FB who still have their leftover spacer.

 

[myduster360]

Once I find a QuickTime Adapter Ring for a T5, here's my idea of how it will be

Assembled with the transmission and bell housing.

 

[myduster360]

QuickTime adapter ring is coming new from Holley $30.00

Once it shows up, I'll dial in the inner and outer diameters of the sheetmetal and then I can mill the bellhousing pilot.