carburetor infamous PING (vacuum issue)

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BIG-B-Barracuda

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:happy1:

okay so I've been struggling with a hard ping coming from my 1411 edelbrock for some time now.

last night i switched my vacuum advance line form time vacuum to manifold vacuum and it fixed it for the most part.

i have suction on both vacuum ports from what i understand time vacuum should not have any until the throttle is opened. i am currently running the manifold vacuum and its been "feeling" better is my timing off is that why my timed vacuum is off?
 
Not sure what a "ping" from the carb sounds like. Do you mean the engine is pinging under load?

Sound like your initial timing is too low, that's why it seems to idle better when you move over to the manifold vacuum. Your carb idle screw is open too far uncovering your timed vacuum port, that's why you have vacuum at that port. If you increase your initial advance you will be able to close idle adjustment and retune your idle mixture screws.
 
Yes, everythings messed up.Theres lots and lots of threads on thus.
It basically amounts to the transfer ports are not synced up right to the throttle blades. The blades are open too far.
The number one thing is defeat the v-can for a while.Put it on the back-burner of your mind.
Crank about 18 to 22 degrees of idle timing into it.The bigger the cam, the more timing.
Reduce the curb idle to something in the range of 800 to 900 rpm.Again the bigger cams needs more rpm
A 230* cam needs a minimum of 14*. A 250* cam needs a minimum of about 18*
Now find the spark-port. It will be the one with little to no vacuum on it at idle,and increasing vacuum with increasing rpm.Increase the base timing until it drops to about 2 inches or less.
Adjust the lowspeed mixture screws for best idle quality.
Baboom. this is your tuning start-point.

Next check your all-in centrifugal advance. If its more than 36* or so, you will have to limit it.If its less than 36*, maybe you can steal a few more degrees from the base-timing. say you have 32*all in, and 18base. By increasing the all in 4*, to 36*, the base might go up the same 4*,to22*. And the spark-port may drop to zero inches. Bingo, thats settled.
Do what you gotta do. The all-in has to be limited to what your fuel will support.If 36* knocks at above say 3500 and never goes away, then 36* is too much for the engine/fuel combo. If 34* knocks below 3200 but is ok above 3500, you will have to slow the rate of advance. If 34* doesnt knock down to 2000 rpm, perhaps you can speed the rate up.All this tuning is done with the V-can defeated. This is power timing full-load/WOT timing only.
Once the above is set, drive it for a few hours. Get to know her. Make adjustments in small increments, as may be required.
Now, its time to hook the Vcan up to the spark-port, and tune it.Inside the hose nipple,
way down inside is a tiny allen socket screw. This screw can be adjusted to bring the advance in sooner or later. Adjust it to bring the advance in as fast as the engine will take it without knocking. The screw is captured and cannot be removed. When it gets tight dont force it, it is at the end of its travel.
Sometimes its a bit of a balancing act between initial(base)timing and the Vcan. When its right the low-speed operation will have a very smooth strong torque delivery, as opposed to a kind of on/off feeling to it. Since youve been driving it for a few hours without the Vcan, you will be able to tell pretty quick what Im talking about,once thecan is hooked up.
Now go have some fun.
Once you get the timing sorted, you may be able to lean out the low speed and cruising circuits some.
.
 
:happy1:

okay so I've been struggling with a hard ping coming from my 1411 edelbrock for some time now.

last night i switched my vacuum advance line form time vacuum to manifold vacuum and it fixed it for the most part.

i have suction on both vacuum ports from what i understand time vacuum should not have any until the throttle is opened. i am currently running the manifold vacuum and its been "feeling" better is my timing off is that why my timed vacuum is off?



ping = carb whistle at first initial start and then at highway speeds at higher rpms.
:burnout:
 
Not sure what a "ping" from the carb sounds like. Do you mean the engine is pinging under load?

Sound like your initial timing is too low, that's why it seems to idle better when you move over to the manifold vacuum. Your carb idle screw is open too far uncovering your timed vacuum port, that's why you have vacuum at that port. If you increase your initial advance you will be able to close idle adjustment and retune your idle mixture screws.

okay so if i understand correctly your saying i should fully back out the idle screw then check for vacuum @ the manifold port :blob:and then retune my mixture screws.
 
Yes, everythings messed up.Theres lots and lots of threads on thus.
It basically amounts to the transfer ports are not synced up right to the throttle blades. The blades are open too far.
The number one thing is defeat the v-can for a while.Put it on the back-burner of your mind.
Crank about 18 to 22 degrees of idle timing into it.The bigger the cam, the more timing.
Reduce the curb idle to something in the range of 800 to 900 rpm.Again the bigger cams needs more rpm
A 230* cam needs a minimum of 14*. A 250* cam needs a minimum of about 18*
Now find the spark-port. It will be the one with little to no vacuum on it at idle,and increasing vacuum with increasing rpm.Increase the base timing until it drops to about 2 inches or less.
Adjust the lowspeed mixture screws for best idle quality.
Baboom. this is your tuning start-point.

Next check your all-in centrifugal advance. If its more than 36* or so, you will have to limit it.If its less than 36*, maybe you can steal a few more degrees from the base-timing. say you have 32*all in, and 18base. By increasing the all in 4*, to 36*, the base might go up the same 4*,to22*. And the spark-port may drop to zero inches. Bingo, thats settled.
Do what you gotta do. The all-in has to be limited to what your fuel will support.If 36* knocks at above say 3500 and never goes away, then 36* is too much for the engine/fuel combo. If 34* knocks below 3200 but is ok above 3500, you will have to slow the rate of advance. If 34* doesnt knock down to 2000 rpm, perhaps you can speed the rate up.All this tuning is done with the V-can defeated. This is power timing full-load/WOT timing only.
Once the above is set, drive it for a few hours. Get to know her. Make adjustments in small increments, as may be required.
Now, its time to hook the Vcan up to the spark-port, and tune it.Inside the hose nipple,
way down inside is a tiny allen socket screw. This screw can be adjusted to bring the advance in sooner or later. Adjust it to bring the advance in as fast as the engine will take it without knocking. The screw is captured and cannot be removed. When it gets tight dont force it, it is at the end of its travel.
Sometimes its a bit of a balancing act between initial(base)timing and the Vcan. When its right the low-speed operation will have a very smooth strong torque delivery, as opposed to a kind of on/off feeling to it. Since youve been driving it for a few hours without the Vcan, you will be able to tell pretty quick what Im talking about,once thecan is hooked up.
Now go have some fun.
Once you get the timing sorted, you may be able to lean out the low speed and cruising circuits some.
.


i will defiantly check this out thank you. :cheers:
 
ping = carb whistle at first initial start and then at highway speeds at higher rpms.
:burnout:

A whistle at initial start, (I''ll take to mean "cold", choke on) and whistling at highway speed, is likely a carb gasket, or more likely a base gasket sucking air at high vacuum.. I'd be tightening all the carb screws, including the ones from the bottom.. making sure the base gasket seals where it's supposed to..

ping = rattling sound ,, like a bag of marbles being shaken...

jmo.. hope it helps
 
i will defiantly check this out thank you. :cheers:

haha, i personally don't really understand this 100% because ive never done this and also dont have the proper equipment and or tools.

if i take this in to a shop what would a reference to as far as getting done?

just ask them to tune it and they should be experienced enough to know and understand?
can i show them your instructions?

:coffee2:

or is this easier than it sounds and i could get by
by trying to do it myself?
 
A whistle at initial start, (I''ll take to mean "cold", choke on) and whistling at highway speed, is more likely a carb gasket, or more likely a base gasket sucking air at high vacuum.. I'd be tightening all the carb screws, including the ones from the bottom.. making sure the base gasket seals where it's supposed to..

ping = rattling sound ,, like a bag of marbles being shaken...

jmo.. hope it helps

ive replaced all carb. gaskets .. and tightened all screws...

some one said maybe the metering rods or springs... but havent tried that.

sounds to me like a vacuum issue. :glasses7:
 
ping = carb whistle at first initial start and then at highway speeds at higher rpms.
:burnout:

Uh...okay?

okay so if i understand correctly your saying i should fully back out the idle screw then check for vacuum @ the manifold port :blob:and then retune my mixture screws.

No.

haha, i personally don't really understand this 100% because ive never done this and also dont have the proper equipment and or tools.

if i take this in to a shop what would a reference to as far as getting done?

just ask them to tune it and they should be experienced enough to know and understand?
can i show them your instructions?

:coffee2:

or is this easier than it sounds and i could get by
by trying to do it myself?

Before you go any further you should make a decision, do you want to buy the necessary tools and learn how to tune your car or do you want to pay someone to do the work? Just be aware, finding someone that knows how to work on these old cars is not as easy as rolling into your local auto repair shop. The search function on this site is a great way to read free tune up information. Here's my last piece of info: Timing adjustments first, then carb adjustments.
 
Uh...okay?



No.



Before you go any further you should make a decision, do you want to buy the necessary tools and learn how to tune your car or do you want to pay someone to do the work? Just be aware, finding someone that knows how to work on these old cars is not as easy as rolling into your local auto repair shop. The search function on this site is a great way to read free tune up information. Here's my last piece of info: Timing adjustments first, then carb adjustments.



what tools would i need to complete this?

also by the way the motor is all stock (to my knowledge) 1973 dodge charger 440 magnum./
 
what tools would i need to complete this?

also by the way the motor is all stock (to my knowledge) 1973 dodge charger 440 magnum./

Hand tools (screw drivers, wrenches, socket set, etc.), a timing light and a vacuum gauge. Most important, READ everything you can find about timing and carb adjustment. As I said earlier, a free source of great info is the search function of this site.
 
ANOTHER SYMPTOM i forgot to mention was that the car idles a bit hectic(higher rpm/ sputtery if this makes sense ) on [PARK] and on gear it idles pretty good.

does this sound like timing or can this be resolved in a different manner?
 
One other thing to check is the PCV valve. If it's worn out or broken it will act like a huge vacuum leak.
Easy to check and cheap to replace.

Ted
 
Well thats a switch. Usually its the other way around.
I think Demon 408 in post#10 makes an excellent point.

So you have a whistle and a high sputtery idle.
Throttle blades can whistle too.Or a too-small-hole gasket under the primaries,such that the paper is out in the airstream.Or secondaries cracked open.

I think that idle issue may go back to the T-port sync-up/late idle timing issue.
Do you have a timing lite? If yes , I refer you back to Post#3.
If no, do you have a vacuum gauge?If yes, hook it up to the sparkport. Thats the nipple that goes above the throttle blade.The vacuum here should be zero to very low(2 to 4 "max).
For now only,that is for now only,engine running transmission in Park,loosen the dizzy hold-down bolt and rotate that dizzy; till the idle speed stops increasing and the vacuum falls to zero, or 3/8 inch, whichever comes first.Reset the idle speed to 850 or so. Adjust the mixture screws to get a smooth,steady idle quality.
But if you dont have a timing lite, nor a vacuum gauge;Youre screwed. Kidding! You can use your tongue for a vacuum gauge. Just stick a hose on that spark-port and stick your tongue on the other end.Then just twist some advance into it, as above.
Now, heres the thing.This is an idle timing adjustment only. AND its ballpark only.
The power timing HAS to be adjusted next. If you take it for a boot,set like this, and all your skirts end up in the pan; I dont want to hear about it.
You can drive it like this using gentle throttle opening rates. If you hear the dreaded detonation rattle, Your not being gentle enough.
But the Power-timing HAS to be set ASAP.
ASAP
 
Timing chain might be shot. just a shot in the dark! MT:burnout:
 
i recently purchased a vacuum gauge to do the AIR/FUEL setting on my carb (edelbrock 1411) and on the left side i am getting 5psi on the right i am getting 25psi does this sound right? (MANIFOLD/mechanical)

if the can on the distributor goes bad what symptoms would i have?

i dont think this gauge was built to help in doing the AIR/FUEL set up i am still getting some "ping" like its getting more air thn fuel... i am 1 3/4 turns out each
 
Most EVERY time you get a whistle, it is from the carburetor to intake gasket leaking somewhere. Almost every single time. That's where I would concentrate my search.
 
Hi there Big
Not going so good, eh.
We are going to have to get you on-track with descriptors so that we can understand eachother.I have no desire to embarrass you, but rather, we need to be talking the same mechanical language. I see your English is pretty good, so let's start with "whistle"
-A whistle is a whistle is a whistle. Please don't call it a ping or a hard ping. That is something totally different, and should probably never be used in common useage any more. When air rushes through a tiny opening it makes a sound we commonly call a whistle. A carb can whistle. But it almost never whistles under any other circumstance except idle.
-Ping on this side of the screen, is a word we use to describe the noise an engine makes when it is being forced to operate with too much timing for the load it is under.It is perhaps better to call it knock, cuz that's what it sounds like; a continuous knocking while it is operating under this condition. When this knock is happening, it is usually while accelerating away from a stop with a lot of throttle. If you back off the throttle during this knocking situation, it usually stops immediately. The gas pedal can be turned into a on/off knock-switch. Is this what you are experiencing? If yes, then you have got to reduce the timing until it stops before you damage the engine. It does not take long for the engine to expire when operated this way with full load/full throttle.
So let's change the word ping into spark knock or detonation . No more ping.
-Next, let's talk about the vacuum ports on your carb. The smaller ones that fit into the vacuum advance rubber hose. There are three of those. One has a short rubber hose going to the choke pull-off. Don't mess with that one. Then there may be two others. One is called the sparkport. It is called this cuz when it is active, it advances the spark by activating the vacuum advance (V-can) system. If the carb butterflies are correctly adjusted, this port will be inactive at idle, as in no vacuum there. That is the correct port for you to be hooking the V-can to. If you have a third port, it will be a manifold vacuum port ,as in full manifold vacuum will be there at all times. Plug it. Don't use it. Leave it be...
So, you have a stock 440. That's an easy tune. I've had a few of those that idle at dead-smooth at 500 in gear. Please re-read post #17, and change 850 idle in N/P to 600/650.
- Now lets talk about your new VACUUM gauge. A Vacuum gauge does not read in psi, but rather inches mercury, commonly abbreviated to just inches. So yours is reading 5 inches at the sparkport and 25 inches at the manifold vacuum port.So now we are on the same page.Now, the 5" at the sparkport indicates that the butterflies are quite a bit too far open. And the 25" manifold vacuum indicates that the timing is/may be,overly advanced. (Very few engines idle with that high a reading.) So go back to post #17 and sync up the T-ports.Also;1.75 turns out on the mixture screws may not be enough.Once you get the T-ports synced up and the advance set to where the engine idles around 600/650in N/P,you will probably find those screws will want to be out around 2.5 turns from lightly seated.
-Okay now let's revisit the whistle. If after performing all these adjustments, and everything is working correctly, and it still whistles; forget about it! Lots of carbs Whistle. The factory air filter houses usually muffle it pretty good. With new gaskets everywhere, a proper set up, and a high idle vacuum reading, I wouldn't be concerned about an idle whistle.
Now go back and review post #17!
 
HA, SORRY GUYS...

&thanks AJ

not great on the "lingo" but i have gathered a great deal of knowledge from you guys.



again i am not great at this like you guys are.. masters to apprentices ...

so...

1.) ill take my vacuum gauge connect it and it will read 5 inches so loosen distributor and turn it untill it reads 0 or 3/4 inches.

2.) adjust the idle screw so it idles at 850

3.) adjust the AIR mixture screws to a possible 2 1/2 turns.


does this sound correct?
After this is done do i do the timing?

currently i have it set at 44-45 with vacuum ports blocked off and idle at 2k/2.5k i use timing light.

i apologize again for my "Noob.ness" ...

thanks.
 
If you turn the distributor and make the vacuum reading drop, you are turning it the wrong way.
 
"engine running transmission in Park,loosen the dizzy hold-down bolt and rotate that dizzy; till the idle speed stops increasing and the vacuum falls to zero, or 3/8 inch, whichever comes first."

sorry now i am lost, this is what i understood. is this incorrect?

again you guys have been huge help and great teachers sorry something so simple to you guys is difficult to understand for me.
 
Rusty's right and so am I. You are confusing the ports.

Number 1, disconnect the Vcan
Then,with the gauge on the MANIFOLD vacuum port you use Rusty's method.
Then with the gauge on the sparkport; It should read little to nothing.
Then you can reconnect the Vcan.
This my dad used to call "timing it by ear". He got away with it cuz he used to burn "hi-test". We don't have that available at the pumps anymore.Keep in mind this gives the engine the idle timing it wants. BUT the power-timing still may need adjusting.

You say"currently i have it set at 44-45 with vacuum ports blocked off and idle at 2k/2.5k i use timing light." This is not right. Idle-Timing is never set at 2000 rpm with the ports blocked off, on a street car. The timing is always set with the Vcan defeated, and, at any idle rpm below that which activates the centrifugal system. This is usually below 1000rpm (but not always). In your case 600 to 900 should be fine.
-Then the power-timing is checked, still without the Vcan.This is done by reving up the engine to an rpm where the timing no longer advances, and reading the amount of advance. This rpm usually (but not always) falls between 3000 and 4000 rpm. The amount should be 32 to 36 degrees. If it's not in this range we will have to figure out how to make it so.

Methinks you didn't re-read post #17. Or if you did, you didn't understand it. And if that's the case,then don't be shy to say so. At one time,I didn't know anything about this stuff either.

So I'll include it here and amend it as required. From post #17,then;
I think that idle issue may go back to the T-port sync-up/late idle timing issue.
The T-port sync-up is done with the carb on the bench and at curb idle, with the choke off. Flip the beast upside down and observe the transfer slots.You will be searching for them in the throttle bores,right beside where the mixture screws enter. You will find one slot in each primary bore. They are about 20/25 thou wide and maybe an eighth inch long. When you find them, put the carb back on the curb idle screw/choke off. Now look at those slots under the throttles. They should be just about square. Make them so, using the curb idle screw. Then, check the secondary throttle blades;they should be all the way closed but not stuck closed. Then make sure NONE of the blades have holes drilled through them. Then bolt it back on.

IDLE-TIMING
The number one thing is to defeat the v-can for a while.Put it on the back-burner of your mind.
For now only,that is for now only,engine running transmission in Park,loosen the dizzy hold-down bolt and rotate that dizzy; till the idle speed stops increasing
and the vacuum at the manifold vacuum port reaches a maximum,
and the vacuum at the sparkport falls to zero/near zero,
The idle speed should now be in the ballpark of 600 to 900.
Adjust the mixture screws to about 2.5 turns out, or whatever it takes to get a smooth,steady idle quality.
Now, if the idle speed is not reasonable, as in too fast, then one of two things is going on; 1) the engine is sucking air somewhere or, 2) the timing is overly advanced. If the idle speed is too slow(not likely), you will have to introduce air somewhere else than the curb idle screw. This is called giving it idle-air bypass.Like the PCV, or by cracking the secondaries. The point is to not move the curb idle screw too far from the T-port sync-up, but to control the idle speed with timing or idle air bypass.If you just need a 1 turn of the curb-idle screw ,take it.
Now, heres the thing.This is an idle timing adjustment only. AND its ballpark only.
The power timing HAS to be adjusted next. If you take it for a boot,set like this, and all your skirts end up in the pan; I dont want to hear about it.
You can drive it like this using gentle throttle opening rates. If you hear the dreaded detonation rattle, Your not being gentle enough.

POWER-TIMING
And from posy 3#;
Next check your all-in centrifugal advance(power-timing). If its more than 36* or so, you will have to limit it.If its less than 36*, maybe you can steal a few more degrees from the idle-timing. say you have 32*all in, and 18idle. By increasing the all in 4*, to 36*, the idle-timing might go up the same 4*, to22*. Sometimes (often) The dizzy has to be modified to hit both points; the idle-timing and the power-timing. We can talk about this later.
Do what you gotta do. The all-in has to be limited to what your fuel will support.If 36* knocks at above say 3500 and never goes away, then 36* is too much for the engine/fuel combo. If 34* knocks below 3200 but is ok above 3500, you will have to slow the rate of advance. If 34* doesnt knock down to 2000 rpm, perhaps you can speed the rate up.All this tuning is done with the V-can defeated. This is power timing full-load/WOT timing only.
Once the above is set, drive it for a few hours. Get to know her. Make adjustments in small increments, as may be required.

VACUUM ADVANCE
Now, its time to hook the Vcan up to the spark-port, and tune it.Inside the hose nipple,
way down inside is a tiny allen socket screw. IIRC it's a 5/32.This screw can be adjusted to bring the advance in sooner or later. Adjust it to bring the advance in as fast as the engine will take it without knocking. The screw is captured and cannot be removed. When it gets tight dont force it, it is at the end of its travel.I forget which way is what. I think CW is slower, but not sure at all.
Sometimes its a bit of a balancing act between initial idle-timing and the Vcan. When its right the low-speed operation will have a very smooth strong torque delivery, as opposed to a kind of on/off feeling to it. Since you've been driving it for a few hours without the Vcan, you will be able to tell pretty quick what Im talking about,once the can is hooked back up.
Now go have some fun.
Once you get the timing sorted, you may be able to lean out the low speed and cruising circuits some.
CONCLUSION
So go get that done and let's see what your dizzy is doing. We want to know what the Power-timing is when the Idle-timing is properly set up. Then we'll figure out how to marry them.
 
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