Cruising RPM. can it be to low ?

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rustytoolss

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From a gas mileage point of view . Can cruising RPM be to low ? What would be a good RPM for getting the best mileage.? , for a mostly stock small block. Can the RPM be to low (under torque curve). With a set 2.76 or 3.23/ 27.4 dia tires / A500 with lockup/ .69to1 overdrive.
With the 2.76's I get a cruising RPM @60 of 1399.
With the 3.23's I get a cruising RPM@60 of 1641 (which I'm sure would be a better choice)
Would the lockup even be usable at 60 MPH at those RPM's ?
 
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From what I have heard, the stall on most convertors is between 1800-2200 rpm. I don't know what effect cruising at RPM's under the stall speed would have. It would be interesting information though, so I will be watching this thread to see what those with more transmission knowledge have to say.
 
my 2000 46rfe will lock at 45 mph and about 1200 rpm!
 
From what I have heard, the stall on most convertors is between 1800-2200 rpm. I don't know what effect cruising at RPM's under the stall speed would have. It would be interesting information though, so I will be watching this thread to see what those with more transmission knowledge have to say.

It depends on how much tq your engine makes at any given RPM under the flash stall.

For example, my convertor flash stalls at 3500. That is at WOT with 550lb/lbs of tq @3500RPM. You put that convertor behind a slant 6, it won't stall at 3500 anymore. Same applys to ay car, when you cruise under the flash stall at low throttle conditions your engine is also making less torque, thus making the convertor act like it is behind a smaller engine. This is the premise of how higher stall convertors work behind OD transmissions in street driven cars.

TO the OP, I'd shoot for the 3.23's and 1600RPM cruise speed.
 
From a gas mileage point of view . Can cruising RPM be to low ? What would be a good RPM for getting the best mileage.? , for a mostly stock small block. Can the RPM be to low (under torque curve). With a set 2.76 or 3.23/ 27.4 dia tires / A500 with lockup/ .69to1 overdrive.
With the 2.76's I get a cruising RPM @60 of 1399.
With the 3.23's I get a cruising RPM@60 of 1641 (which I'm sure would be a better choice)
Would the lockup even be usable at 60 MPH at those RPM's ?

There are a few things to consider here.
1. If lockup gets the motor so low in RPM's that it builds heat faster that the cooling system can circulate it out.
2. If lockup comes on so early in the RPM's as to be a detriment to fuel economy. (Or lugging the motor causing detonation)

I have my lockup come in at about 75 mph and usually run about 80mph at 2,100rpm's or it's turned off and just run in OD just for those reasons.
It just made sense to try and keep it all close to what the vehicles the trans came out of ran.
To low of an RPM under load doesn't get your mechanical timing in, and you are running late timing compounding the low RPM heat problems.

Like I said, I try to keep the RPM's within the range the manufacturer meant it to be, as they have already done the R&D on it.
In my case that's in the low 2k's at 80 in lockup.
If I'm pulling a big hill with lots of throttle I'll drop it out of lockup just to get the R's up to were I know my total timing is in.
 
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Just drive any modern car with deep overdrive and low torque, trans constantly shifting in even moderately hilly terrain eating up MPG and
wearing out transmission. Build to your driving condition MOST of the time.
 
My 2003 Ram with a Hemi , 3.55s and a double O.D trany is a perfect example. It spins around 1600 rpm at 55 IIRC... and lugs... I tried to find a truck with 3.91s when I bought it but couldnt.I am sure it would get better mpg and acceleration.
 
My 08 ram cruises about 1800 with a double OD 6 speed trans.
 
My 2003 Ram with a Hemi , 3.55s and a double O.D trany is a perfect example. It spins around 1600 rpm at 55 IIRC... and lugs... I tried to find a truck with 3.91s when I bought it but couldnt.I am sure it would get better mpg and acceleration.
So what is double overdrive ? never heard of it . Is it overdrive and lockup ?
 
It has 2 gears over a 1:1 ratio...
.74ish and .5ish are 4th and 5th gears...then add in 33" tall tires .
My 5.7 hemi just doesnt have enough low end torque to handle that gearing..IMO
 
My Renegade is double O/D, actuality it's technically triple as 4th is .97

...and the "rear" is 4.33!
 
The biggest issue might be the cam.
A performance cam may still be in reversion well below 2000 rpm. That means the pistons are pushing mixture back up into the intake, on their way back up, until the intake valve finally closes.
This causes three things; firstly this reduces your effective compression ratio. Not your Static nor your Dynamic, but your Effective Cr.Which reduces your torque. Perhaps to a point where any little irregularity in terrain or wind, will require constant throttle manipulation to maintain speed.
Second; is tuning;It's hard to get the AFR lean enough under these conditions to reduce fuel consumption from that angle.
And third, if you have to run it rich to compensate for the falling efficiency, what are the ramifications of that? Increased fuel consumption, unburned fuel in the oil pan and fuel in the exhaust system;non of which is saving you money.
Every engine has a minimum rpm as far as reversion is concerned. To find it, I put a vacuum gauge on it and slowly rev it up. The lowest rpm at which the vacuum peaks is the first time reversion has stopped. I would consider that a "target"cruise rpm.
This is not a hard and fast rule tho, because the engine will continue to use less fuel with less rpm, even tho it is operating in reversion. But there will be a break-even point somewhere where any lower rpm will consume more fuel; and in the meantime the Afr will be a bit of a challenge.
So in answer to your question, yes.
I have akindof rule of thumb guideline; whatever your cam measures at .050, multiply it by 10 and that is my target minimum cruise rpm. Therefore a 200 cam works out to 2000, and a 240cam looks like 2400. And yes that is the target, not the absolute. The vacuum gauge is another good method, and is more engine specific.
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But I'm a little stumped why, with an overdrive, you might want to run that low a ratio.
Most of us run OD because we want the lower starter gear, to get moving quicker, or we want to optimize second gear, or some other rpm or speed. We usually just want the od to get us a lower cruise rpm than the 65=3000 we might be currently running;ANYTHING lower,lol. And so 3.91s might be the go-to gear. These drop the Rs at 65 in od, to about 2200, and all my SBMs have been quite happy at that rpm, which is about a 2.70 final drive.
Altho I had this one Hi-compression, small cam 367, that was Ok with a 2.02 final-drive, making incredible mileage doing about 2000@80mph. Yeah that one ran 10.9Scr and around 185psi. That one was actually pretty good down to 60=1400;also in double od.
So if you build your engine to make big VP down there, it will reward you with excellent fuel-economy; whether or not it will make power at 6000 is another story.
 
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Doen't take too much hp to move a car at highway speeds pretty much lower the better.

I heard lots recommend peak torque before but the makes no sense to me unless you got a diesel that peaks under 2000 rpm.

Say your engine peaks at 3200 rpm yes thats where your engine is most VE efficient.
But going from 3200 rpm to 1600 rpm pretty much cuts the fuel and air in half. Even if your burns more fuel per hp 1600 rpm still gonna be better on gas.

Now 1500 rpm might not be better than 1600 rpm theres lots of variables. But generally lower the better.

Now to me, I don't like my car to lug and have to change gear for every slight incline.

My engine is soft under 2000 rpm and lugs quite a bit. So in town under 40 mph I have to drive in second cause of the 2.94 gears. Which gives me effective gear ratio of 4.26.

If I was to go overdrive I want 55 mph to be at or slightly under 2000 rpm. So I could go into OD on back roads also not just the highway. So at 70 it probably be around 2500 rpm.

So to me it depends where your car lugs.
 
I had a 2000 WS6 Trans Am LS1 with the 6-speed T56. At 65 mph it got BETTER mileage in 5th gear than 6th! At 70mph I could almost use 6th gear. Yes, you can lug the engine too much and your rod bearings will hate you for it. We are not talking diesels here.
 
Before I installed the digital Megasquirt ignition on my 318, it would lug down in Overdrive and highway speeds and inclines. It had a 3.23 rear axle.
Changed to 3.91 gears which 'solved' this. Stepped down to 3.55 gears later on.
Then I installed a digital ignition and was able to tune the engine's ignition curve much better and I'm sure the car would now still be happy with 3.23 again.
 
Ex..... you are cruising at 1600 rpms @ 65 mph ...it takes 150 ft/lbs to maintain 65 mph to maintain that speed in your vehicle...but your engine doesnt hit 150 ft/lbs until 1900 rpm.....
Your engine will need more fuel and/or a lower trany gear....so it downshift due to throttle position.... gets back up to 65 and shifts back up into O.D starting the cycle all over again !
Thats my Ram in a nutshell !
 
Ex..... you are cruising at 1600 rpms @ 65 mph ...it takes 150 ft/lbs to maintain 65 mph to maintain that speed in your vehicle...but your engine doesnt hit 150 ft/lbs until 1900 rpm.....
Your engine will need more fuel and/or a lower trany gear....so it downshift due to throttle position.... gets back up to 65 and shifts back up into O.D starting the cycle all over again !
Thats my Ram in a nutshell !


It that at the crank or tire? I can see a minimum hp but not toque.
 
150x1600/5250=45.7hp, is that better?

:popcorn:

Not really, 46 hp is probably close to right but an engine with 75 lbs-ft at 3200 rpm will make 46hp or an engine with 150 lbs-ft at 3200 rpm will make 92 hp. Torque really aint telling the ability.
 
I used random numbers just for n example...but my Ram does exactly that.
 
Its all about efficiency at the throttle position you are at. We dyno engines at full throttle, but for the most part, mods to generate more overall power, mean less efficiency at less throttle openings. Some designs, and some management systems can help ease the compromise between the power vs part throttle efficiency, but it's all dependent on what you have. IMO, as long as you are past your full mechanical advance, and run a vacuum advance on ported source, you are fine. But not all combo's have that, or will run well at low rpm with it.
 
Pulling a really tall gear will lower manifold vacuum at cruise. If this put you close to the point the power valve opens or metering rods lift, fuel economy may not be improved at all.
 
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