Doug's Headers Hitting Column!?

[nub340]

Quick:
Is there something wrong with my car or does pretty much everyone have trouble fitting Doug's on a small block LA motor in a A-body? Will TTI's solve the problem?

Long:
I have a '72 Dart Swinger w/a 340 small block and Doug's headers. When I originally had the motor built (~15 years ago now) we had an issue with the #7 header pipe contacting the steering shaft. The shop I used ended up inserting a couple of steel shims under the driver side motor mount to raise the motor up just enough to "fix" the problem. Aside from my motor looking a little crooked this seemed to work fine for many years.

Over time however the motor mounts eventually started to wear out and the #7 header pipe started to occasionally bump into the steering shaft (usually during rough idling but sometimes during cornering as well) which you could feel through the steering wheel while driving. This was obviously super sketchy but before I had to chance to replace the motor mounts life got in the way and the car ended up sitting for almost 10 years...

Fast-forward to today. I'm in the process of rebuilding the car and already installed an RMS Alterktion front suspension. Now I'm trying to mount my freshly rebuilt motor properly but once again the #7 header pipe is contacting the steering shaft. The Alterktion uses a spool type mount so there's no way to put a shim under it anymore.

At this point I'm just not sure where the root of the problem lies and would like to better understand the issue before proceeding. I've been reading posts and it seems that some people just opt to put a big 'ole dent in their #7 header pipe, others claim switching to TTI's will do the trick while others claim they didn't have any issues at all. So is this a super common issue or indicative that something else might be wrong with my car?

I called TTI and talked to Sam but he wasn't 100% sure that the TTI's would fit w/o issue. He did help me take some measurements and it SEEMS like they SHOULD fit much better. Also, since I have an RMS suspension now he recommend I get the B-body step headers instead of the A-body ones because they're exactly same only the B-body headers don't have a removable #7 tube which the A-body version has to fit around the torsion bar (which I don't have anymore).

Anyhow, sorry for the long post but hopefully someone out there can shed some light on this issue for me and help point me in the right direction.

 

[crackedback]

I'd move the engine over. Or Dent the headers.

 

[MrJLR]

I have a minor bit of the same problem in the same place with the same headers...
What's the best way to dent that pipe a tiny bit without removing the header?

Jeff

 

[72bluNblu]

Huh. The #7 pipe on my Dougs headers is well clear of the steering shaft on my car. Now, I replaced a section of my steering shaft with a DD telescoping shaft, but it's still a 1" OD. The flat section is of course facing the header right now so it looks like more clearance than it has when it's turned, but it's still well clear. '74 spool mount K with a 340.

 

[MrJLR]

Huh. The #7 pipe on my Dougs headers is well clear of the steering shaft on my car. Now, I replaced a section of my steering shaft with a DD telescoping shaft, but it's still a 1" OD. The flat section is of course facing the header right now so it looks like more clearance than it has when it's turned, but it's still well clear. '74 spool mount K with a 340.

View attachment 1714959968

Not mine!

Jeff

 

[RustyRatRod]

Dent the headers? Are yall fuckin stupid? Look man, all you gotta do is loosen the bolts holdin the steering column flange on at the firewall and slide it over to the driver's side of the car a little bit. Problem solved. Over and out. Roger wilco. I swear to God. Some of yall need to stay off these forums.

 

[MrJLR]

Dent the headers? Are yall fuckin stupid? Look man, all you gotta do is loosen the bolts holdin the steering column flange on at the firewall and slide it over to the driver's side of the car a little bit. Problem solved. Over and out. Roger wilco. I swear to God. Some of yall need to stay off these forums.

I did not know I could do that...thank you!
And that is why some of us need to STAY ON the forum. ..to learn. ...
Lol....take yer meds and thank you for the tip!

Jeff

 

[TrailBeast]

Spools can be adjusted anyway (a little) and I know they can be enough to miss that.
You just loosen the bolts, get a floor jack under the motor and lift it just enough to clear and retighten the bolts nice and tight.
They can even be used in this way to move the motor to the side a little and the same thing done.
I know because I do it with my car when things settle or whatever and I need a little clearance here or there.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I did not know I could do that...thank you!
And that is why some of us need to STAY ON the forum. ..to learn. ...
Lol....take yer meds and thank you for the tip!

Jeff

You are most CERTAINLY welcome! and shut up and gimmie my meds. lol

 

[MrJLR]

You are most CERTAINLY welcome! and shut up and gimmie my meds. lol

If we ever cross paths, we can drink some meds...I'll buy!

First thing tomorrow morning I'm gonna move the steering column over...awesome!

Jeff

 

[RustyRatRod]

If we ever cross paths, we can drink some meds...I'll buy!

First thing tomorrow morning I'm gonna move the steering column over...awesome!

Jeff

Great! Let us know how it turns out. Also, FWIW, if it acts like it doesn't have much room to move, you can drill the holes out bigger in the plate (or firewall, whichever is NOT threaded, I forget) to get more movement in it. But usually, there's quite a bit of movement there to begin with. These things don't take much brain power. Usually all you have to do is look for a solution and it's right there.

 

[iw378]

My dougs fit fine in my 69 notch. Stock k frame, but with a 360. Got at least a half inch between header and shaft.

 

[iw378]

The column plate bolts go through the firewall, engine side of firewall has nuts welded to it. You'd have to egg out the holes in the column plate to do get any adjustment. But that plate doesn't have a lot of slop around the column tube. It fits pretty snug.

 

[TrailBeast]

My dougs fit fine in my 69 notch. Stock k frame, but with a 360. Got at least a half inch between header and shaft.

Kind of like replacing a fuel sending unit, as it works fine in some cars and some never read right.

 

[TrailBeast]

The column plate bolts go through the firewall, engine side of firewall has nuts welded to it. You'd have to egg out the holes in the column plate to do get any adjustment. But that plate doesn't have a lot of slop around the column tube. It fits pretty snug.

Yep, and I pushed the one in our 72 about 1/4 inch just by loosening the bolts and pushing the whole thing over.
There's some forgiveness in almost everything on these cars.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The column plate bolts go through the firewall, engine side of firewall has nuts welded to it. You'd have to egg out the holes in the column plate to do get any adjustment. But that plate doesn't have a lot of slop around the column tube. It fits pretty snug.

Nope, not as snug as you think. I have done it several times. There is room to be had there.

 

[nub340]

Dent the headers? Are yall fuckin stupid? Look man, all you gotta do is loosen the bolts holdin the steering column flange on at the firewall and slide it over to the driver's side of the car a little bit. Problem solved. Over and out. Roger wilco. I swear to God. Some of yall need to stay off these forums.

Ha-ha seriously, that's actually not not a bad idea! When I re-installed my column I definitely made a concerted effort to make sure the column flange was as far over to the drivers side as possible before tightening. However, egging out those holes a bit more definitely seems like a better solution than any of the others I've heard so far. I just hope it doesn't change the angle of the column so much that the steering wheel looks crooked. I'm gonna give this a try today and report back.

@72bluNblu - Wow that is a LOT of clearance! Way more than I could ever dream of. Did you relocate the motor over to the passenger side or widen your body or something??

 

[nub340]

Alright so the mounting holes in my column flange already looked "egged out" quite a bit but I drilled them out a little more and then made sure the flange was mounted as far to the driver's side as possible. The steering shaft now clears the #7 header tube by maybe an 1/8" at it's closest point! It still looks too close for comfort to me but definitely a LOT better now so thanks, @RustyRatRod!!

How much clearance is considered legit to account for vibrations/engine torquing/etc? I'm thinking 1/4" would prob be adequate but I'm not sure if I should drill the holes out much more since there isn't much metal left...

 

[72bluNblu]

@72bluNblu - Wow that is a LOT of clearance! Way more than I could ever dream of. Did you relocate the motor over to the passenger side or widen your body or something??

I didn't relocate anything. Stock '74 spool mount V8 K frame (seam welded and gusseted), and the original steering column. Engine sits in the stock location, I don't have the clearance to do anything else with it (1.12" torsion bars, Dougs headers, milodon road race pan, and 4 speed linkage all competing for space) I used the adjustment in the column mounts to shift the steering shaft away from the engine like RRR suggested earlier to gain clearance on my borgeson vibration damping steering coupler, but I didn't modify the mounting plate holes or anything. I did modify the steering shaft to include the telescoping DD shaft I mentioned earlier, but where the steering shaft passes the #7 tube it doesn't make much of a difference. I do use a Flaming River 16:1 steering box so it's not a stock steering box, but that shouldn't matter since they're supposed to work with all the stock components. But who knows. I also use an ER16 bearing on the steering shaft instead of a stock plastic bearing, so the steering shaft is dead center in the column housing. Could be all of those things contribute a small amount of space and all of them together gives the clearance you see.

Here are threads that explain my steering shaft modifications, but really neither should change the clearance to the header significantly.

Steering shaft upgrade

Replace your lower column bearing: Better and Cheaper!!!

 

[TrailBeast]

Should be fine as the engine torques the other way the most.

 

[nub340]

OK so after drilling out the 3 holes quite a bit the flange is now mounted as high up and as far to the driver's side as possible. After making these modifications to the flange plate I now have close to 1/4" of clearance with the stock column. Much much better! However, the flange is now WAY over to the driver's side and just doesn't look right since it's pretty obvious it's not where it's "supposed" to be.

Anyhow I'm going to try and install a flaming river tilt column now. Hopefully it fits just as well or better than the stock column does now. I'll need to fab a mount & brackets for under the dash though so perhaps I can compensate a bit for the column being angled towards the passenger side. I also ordered the aluminum swivel flange from FR so hopefully I can mount it in the same position that the stock flange is in now w/o modification but most likely I'll prob need to drill it out as well. We shall see...

 

[72bluNblu]

Have you considered that the steering column might not be the problem?

Before I laid out the kind of scratch one of those flaming river columns costs I would check to make sure the car is straight and nothings bent or broken. These cars have been around for awhile, the stock steering box mounts have been known to crack (mine was on my '74). Same for the engine mounts on the K, the factory welds on some of the K members out there is atrocious. And of course if the K member was hit or is even a little bent it could cause problems. Same for the frame rails. There's supposed to be a decent amount of adjustment in there, if you had to move it so far that the column is visibly crooked something else might be bent.

Or it could just be bad tolerances, these cars aren't known for having spectacular body tolerances from the factory. But before I spent that kind of money I'd check to make sure something else isn't damaged.

 

[nub340]

Have you considered that the steering column might not be the problem?

Yeah I still don't really understand why my car is seemingly having this issue. In light of Rusty's comment I was hoping it would be as simple as he states, but on my car, without modding the column flange in any way but mounting it max to the left and up, with my stock column+bearing, I had around 1/16" of clearance. After drilling the flange out a little bit it increased to around 1/8". After modding the flange a bit more and adjusting the dash mount by loosening it and pressing the steering wheel hard to the passenger side before tightening it all back up real good, I was able to quite literally squeeze out 1/4" of clearance. While I'm stoked that this should at the very least work for now, it def doesn't feel like I should have to go to such lengths, so I still wonder what is truly the root cause.

The k-member is a brand new RMS Alterktion so it should be all square up front. My Doug's have a 3/8" flange and the #7 tube sticks out another 2 1/2" for a total of 2 7/8". Anyone know if that's to spec or what the TTI's are comparatively?

 

[72bluNblu]

Sorry, I totally forgot you had an RMS Alterkation in the car. And on that note, you have an aftermarket K frame that controls where your engine sits. Any time you start mixing and matching aftermarket and stock parts problems are bound to come up (and I should know by now, given the number of aftermarket parts I have!). The stock tolerances on these cars were not great, the location of the engine mounts wasn't exactly the same on every car to begin with. Remember suspension points were like +/- a 1/4" from the factory, that's the smallest tolerance on the car. Add an Alterkation and now you're including the tolerances allowed on that. Add headers and you add the tolerances they have when building those. None of those parts are identical to all the other ones out there. The tolerances should be small, but to be a 1/4" off between the engine mounts on an aftermarket K frame, headers, the original frame rails, steering column mounts etc isn't much when you start considering the tolerance on each part. If you take a look around the forum at header threads you'll find some cars have TTI's mounted with no clearance issues while others had to dent tubes. Some have Doug's with no clearance issues, while others had to dent them. It all comes down to the range of tolerances, some cars are better suited to one brand or the other. Not because either one is better, but they're a little different so one will work better than the other on some cars and vice-versa.

If RMS recommends B-body TTI's it's probably because they know that header works best with their K-frame (which controls the engine location). That's not to say the Doug's shouldn't work, but there's a lot of parts from a lot of different manufacturers all coming together in one place. If you got it to clear and nothing is obviously bent, I'd call it good.

 

[340 demon 72]

Well classic industry's has a flaming river steering gearbox coupler the I did with mine clears fine just have to know if u have 5/8 or 11/16 steering box had to cut and 1 1/2 inch off bottom of column