Engine requires 20 degrees of initial to idle well...

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I feel like I may have made some progress tonight..

First off - I stopped by the auto parts store to picked up a new cap/rotor.. while I was there, ran into a nice guy with a sweet 440-powered Fury.. this thing was cool.
82c0f410a54d11e1a39b1231381b7ba1_7.jpg


Anyways.... he and I chatted too long, and the parts store closed.. so I went across the street to Autozone and got my cap/rotor...

Came home, swapped it out, no noticeable improvement.

Next step: put markings on the harmonic balancer so I could avoid using the dial-back light .. I'm hearing that they don't always work well with MSD boxes. Adjusted idle timing to about 16 degrees advance, checking with both my dial-back light as well as a regular (non-dial) timing light to ensure they both read the same.

I kept backing out the a/f screws until my vacuum started to increase, and it seemed to make an impact to how it ran. I had to back them out to about 2.5 turns out, but it seemed to start making a difference. I was able to get the idle speed screw backed off a bit.

I am running a Holley blue fuel pump along with a Holley pressure regulator and a fuel pressure gauge .. no return line. At idle, the pressure does build up a bit .. it 'creeps'.. so I know I have to give it a few blasts of throttle to bring the pressure back down. Anyways, during the process tonight, I gave it some good blasts of throttle, and held it at a higher RPM range for a little bit...

Next thing I know, it's holding an idle better than I've seen so far...

Am I finally making progress?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UULdvZc8vqs&list=UUI3o1I0V0CJXfOmuCbQdUdg&index=1&feature=plcp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UULdvZc8v...mp;feature=plcp[/ame]

Keep in mind - exhaust is total overkill - headers to 3" exhaust and turndowns.. .so exhaust is pretty loud.. I'll be getting a proper exhaust system installed when it's done.
 
Rotor phase -- I would not necessarily check the vacuum unless you think you may use it. What I posted was mostly for explanation, and that you would expect the rotor to be "at one corner" rather than centered in the contact area

Rebuilt dist -- that COULD be a suspect. I cannot see for sure in your photo. Look at the reluctor, see the arrow for CW rotation? That is where the retainer pin should be and not in the opposite side.

Valves --may not be the problem. The more you mill heads and block, the "tighter" the valves become. If you mill either/ both enough, even with hydraulics, you can run out of "cushion" room on the hydraulics, and the valves won't close!! You are correct, they will open further!!

Mopar ECU. Ballasts are cheap. I would not run without one, and if possible, use a stock coil, or at least check the MSD coil for heating after a few minutes

Confusing -----don't let my crappy drawing confuse you. Here's a GM HEI module, you are simply looking down at it. The dist. connector is as pictured, the top of the connector represents the exposed end of the harness.

The drawing is "down" at the module, just like this photo:

d2070.jpg
 
805moparkid said:
im another hand for comp test and cam degreeing... when i did my slant with an JP timing set i had to go 4* retarded on the sprockets to get 4* advance on the cam... lol
Click to expand...

I had t o go 8* retard to get 2* advance with my JP chain and mp.528 cam..ive heard of the cranks keyway being off a lil, but holy sht!lol

Now Ive seen cap rotor phasing be really off, to where it caused pre ignition...but it still idled fine at 12* initial & 750-800rpm.fwiw.


OP-If you have no oil on the plug, burnt or whatever...then id say the intake is more than likely sealing at the flange, though do the spray test to see if the rpms 'lower'...spray around int flange/head and the carburetor too.

Is it firing on all 8 cylinders at rpm?

OP-you say that after you rev'd it up for a bit, that it now idles fine at a decent 'lower' rpm?
So it sounds like you cleared it out, or there is and ignition problem.
What do/did the plugs look like?
 
Cal_gecko said:
I kept backing out the a/f screws until my vacuum started to increase, and it seemed to make an impact to how it ran. I had to back them out to about 2.5 turns out, but it seemed to start making a difference. I was able to get the idle speed screw backed off a bit.

Next thing I know, it's holding an idle better than I've seen so far...

Am I finally making progress?
Click to expand...

Great progress... That was where I was going with my idle speed screw question... The Carter/Edelbrock carbs are not like Holleys. The mixture screws may need to come out a bit to get things to run properly. Which is why the basic process is set timing, set idle speed, hook up vacuum gage, set mixture, tweak speed, set mixture, etc until it's the highest vacuum reading you can get. A 360, with stock compression, and that 268 cam should be able to idle at 650-700 with a little romp, and 800 or so a bit smother. The cam isnt that large. But - you have to have the carb set right too. So I think you're dead on, and as things are optimized you'll find it all around runs better. Next, check the step up springs. You'll probably find they are not the best for your setup's vacuum level.
 
Its a fuel delivery problem, try this at idle pour a little fuel just when the rpms drop and see if she evens out.
 
Listened to the latest video and that is a big improvement. :thumblef:

I still believe you're combo will have fairly low cylinder pressure and if the cam, chain, crk. key, balancer...etc. is off a little bit it could aggrevate the problem. What i mean is it may tend to be a little more soft then crisp
down low.

Great progress though, should be getting close to some road testing. That will tell you a little more.
 
OK .. I am excited that things may be getting better... I know I've read that if the Edelbrock Performer is getting too much gas, that the gas will be visible coming out the 'boosters'.. I am not aware of where the 'boosters' are, but after reading Feets response above, I'm wondering if the boosters are these air horn s sticking out into the venturi...

If they are, there was a fair amount of gas coming out of them at idle... I just thought that was normal. You can kind of see it in the video I did of it running last night..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ucCl8KXoU&list=UUI3o1I0V0CJXfOmuCbQdUdg&index=1&feature=plcp"]Getting Better - YouTube[/ame]

Is this the "booster"? is it normal to see gas coming out of these at idle?
7219633-carb2.jpg
 
Yes, those are the boosters, and no, it's not right. At idle the vacuum from the engine should be keeping the rods down in the jets, and there should be no flow up through the boosters. You need to check the float level, and also verify what color step up springs are in it. You probably need lighter springs and to re-set the floats.
 
OK... thanks .. I have checked to ensure that the vacuum is pulling my metering rods "down" at idle.. and it does... so I think the springs are ok.. so now I need to check my float settings?
 
Yes those are the boosters and wouldn't be surprised to see what i would call a slight trickle at idle. Someone with more experience with these carbs may disagree though.

Sounds really simple, but when you stand behind the car do you get watery eyes from it being overly rich?

Maybe a plug check again after your adjustment could reveal something?
 
EDIT Just looked at the bottom video. Fuel is POURING out those boosters Try dropping the fuel pressure or dropping the fuel level

You should see EXACTLY NOTHING out of the boosters at idle. They often make a pop--pop - sound as fuel drops into the carb throats, or bacon frying if more so

The causes are:

Too much fuel pressure

Poor needles and seats, or junk in them

Fuel logged foam floats, or too high float level

And as you've already addressed, metering rods.

Also, a really poor situation with a big cam can exist if the carb cannot handle the idle needed for the cam, and the combination of not enough ignition advance, and then "making up" by cranking the idle SPEED screw way up. This causes the idle transfer slots to become uncovered, and the main system to start working.

People USED to drill holes in the primary butterflies, but nowadays you can usually take car of it with lots of initial timing, and sometimes adjusting the secondary stop so the rear barrells "crack" open a tiny bit.

Don't be afraid to crank the mixture screws OUT. That is what they are FOR
 
as stated , your floats are stuck/set too high or the needle valve(s) are stuck , just went through this...man your pics are GIANT LOL
 
Too much fuel pressure which was suggested way back when this oddessy began.
 
if you end up deciding the carb is the issue I have a new edelbrock 1406 carb for sale that I just posted for sale on here. works perfect,comes with box,warranty papers,all manuals,all extra parts,stickers,dvd to teach you how to set the carb up and tune it in (if you dont already know). If your interested just send me a PM
 
is there anyone in this guys area that can go over and help him out? holy crap man watching his posts about this here and on moparts is getting ridiculous now.. the problem is all over the damn place now. looks like too much info is being left out. someone needs to go over there, push the guy aside and fix it for him already..


hey cal, stick to playing with your camera and photo editing software. :)
 
Ya know, retarding the timing makes an engine idle smoother, but labored. IS your carb full rich at an idle? Can you adjust it too lean and to rich?
 
abodyjoe said:
is there anyone in this guys area that can go over and help him out? holy crap man watching his posts about this here and on moparts is getting ridiculous now.. the problem is all over the damn place now. looks like too much info is being left out. someone needs to go over there, push the guy aside and fix it for him already..


hey cal, stick to playing with your camera and photo editing software. :)
Click to expand...

No kidding.

It's had ONE major problem from the start (fuel pressure), and one minor (timing), nothing else.

He got told to square away the fuel pressure issue when this first got posted the beginning of the month. Did a whole bunch of stuff he didn't need to and complained about throwing money at it. Some of the dipshit suggestions like the alternator were my favorites. I'll bet the carb is fine, it's getting blasted by excessive fuel pressure, blowing the needle and seat assemblies and flooding the engine. How hard is it to look in the carb where the air goes in to see if it dripping fuel (suggest at the beginning of the month) regardless if you know what a carb is or designed one from scratch. Simple observation diagnosis.

Wanna bet when it's idling smooth, it's got 5 psi fuel pressure, as the fuel pressure increases, the erractic idle/vacuum readings start to rear it's ugly head!

Stop F'ing around, wasting time and bandwidth, and FIX THE FUEL PRESSURE ISSUE like you got told around the first of May!

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=187313&highlight=pressure

I bet that thing would have been fixed in under two hours if I was there! Timing issues and all!
 
67Dart273 said:
What took ya so long? LOL
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Reading this and the crap on moparts is just too much. That last video with the boosters dripping tells the story and is the ROOT ISSUE for what's going on here.

If you get a bunch of suggestions, evaluate them, figure out what cost a bunch of money to fix and which are basically free. Run through the list and fix things COMPLETELY, especially the one that are free or close to it. Not half way, do it right. That's one variable out of the way. I don't know how many ways I can say that the creeping fuel pressure above 5-5.5psi is BAD, DEATH or FATAL to ede carbs and their ability to work properly. Well it goes down to 5, but after a while it is up to 7... IT"S NOT FRICKEN FIXED NOW IS IT!

Unfortunately, Mark is overwhelmed with this and has done a bunch of TOTALLY unnecessary work because he hasn't solved one issue before progressing. I laid out three things that I saw as the most important and essentially free or cheap things for him to do in order (fuel pressure/vac leaks/timing). Maybe one was done and the MOST IMPORTANT and emphasized was ignored or not corrected (fuel pressure).

I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room, however, I know I'm not at the bottom tier when it comes to this stuff.
 
Hey crackedback - I appreciate your advice and suggestions - I wasn't trying to ignore anyone or discount anyone's particular suggestions or opinions on the problem. I was getting different things from so many different people, and yeah - I was overwhelmed, frustrated, defeated and pissed. I didn't know that was the 'booster' that shouldn't have been spitting fuel into the carb, I thought that was the normal way it was supposed to get gas in order to run.. I thought the booster was the nozzle in the back part of the carb...

Anyways, I admit, I'm a stupid motherfucker when it comes to carbs (and some of the other stuff too).. I don't do it regularly like some of the guys here do. I saw someone post something recently that I could relate to - "I may have some mechanical aptitude, just lack the experience to know what I'm doing".. that is TOTALLY me when it comes to this stuff.

Anyways.. when you say that high pressure can be 'fatal' to an Edelbrock carb - are you saying I may have done permanent damage to it?

I really do, sincerely, appreciate all the suggestions, feedback and patience from folks here and on Moparts.. including you.

Anyways.. tonight I'll see if I can resolve the fuel pressure issue - I don't think I'll be able to go buy another pressure regulator tonight (the one local store that sells Holley stuff will be closed by the time I get home), so I'll check the check valve in the fuel pump, and go buy ANOTHER regulator this weekend if necessary. And at the risk of offending anyone else, I'll just leave this thread alone, and stick to posting pretty photos from now on.
 
No, excess fuel pressure won't hurt the carb, just it's ability to meter fuel in a normal fashion. Fatal as in the inability to work properly. Once you get that pressure issue solved, the tuning part will become much easier.

When you get the fuel pressure corrected to a constant 5psi and it's running at idle, there should be NO, NONE, ANY fuel dripping in the carb. If it is, you have to address that issue, likely the float level is too high.

Just do one thing at a time, not like the kid with ADD that can't keep his focus on anything for more than 20 seconds. Just slow down, what you've done is akin to attempting to kill a gnat with a sledgehammer.

I'm guessing from the temporary movement of your vacuum gauge you likely have the leak under control. Set the timing at 16 BTDC. Work on the fuel pressure issue and I bet it comes around nicely.
 
Just want to point a couple things out...

1. You dont need more than a stock fuel pump for what the op is doing, even my 410 ran fine on a stock pump and the 'rpms' it turned.
2. Like ed said, the msd quits multi sparking after 3k...so just know what the hell u set the amount of centrifugal advance to and time it for total... figuring backwards to know what the initial is...though honestly, i dont have any problem timing my stuff with my dial back & all msd ignition.
3. I havent seen any motor that wouldnt run right with just sticking the cam in dot to dot, it may not be nuts on the recommended installed cl...but it will idle and run fine.

So OP. turn the regulator down, or simply go and buy a 16 dollar pep boys fuel pump and drive the thing, no more expensive race parts that u dont need and that only give u problems.
Ps dont get all pissed off.lol
 
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