First round of questions - 727 rebuild

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If it is a stock rebuild and the outer race (and vertical fingers that hold the end of the springs) are undamaged, it still appears tight in the case and the inner isnt worn like my picture I would leave it alone. I always put in new rollers and springs thought, it is cheap insurance.

Check that the set screw that holds the outer is tight, and be sure that anytime you are spinning the tires you have it selected in manual low. This applies the rear band which shares the sprag load. It is not applied when D is selected and in first.
 
j par said:
There's a lot of simple ways around expensive tools you'll only use once or twice. Also have you ever seen a pro pull a pump out of an automatic transmission? On the couple videos of real pro's they skip it or it happens so fast you have slow mo replay it. I'm sure on a turbo 350 I seen him flick it out with a screwdriver. I've also heard of just taking a bar and smacking it through from the valve body area. But that's not first-timer territory probably just use some kind of puller. I just screwed some threaded eyelids in there and used some chain or something to give it a jerk and pull the pump out only thing you got to remember to do is tighten up the exterior band adjuster so you don't suck the guts out LOL with the pump. But you just loosen that up once you get the pump out and then pull each thing out one by one and make sure you put everything back in the same way. I obviously like the way 70aarcuda said to do with the vice grips. I'd take a reading before and after and if you put everything back the same way and use your old spacer washers, I wouldn't change any of that. I would just change all the seals clutches steals and bushings and put the same spacers. There's a lot of play that's available in these Transmissions and torque flights like a lot of play anyways. You don't necessarily want a super tight Transmission. And remember there's no springs or bearings or anything that's going to fly out at you. That's ridiculous! You bag and tag each of the three servos which none of those parts can go in the wrong place really it just bag the three servos separately and you'll be fine. Take it all out and then rebuild each part and put it back in one by one. It's really very simple.
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I agree that you don't always need fancy tools to rebuild a torqueflite but I don't know how you came up with "torqueflite's like a bunch of play" but that for sure isn't true. No auto trans likes a bunch of end play so the clutch carriers can beat the thrust washers to pieces. And btw: those thrust washers can and do wear out. For $12-15 extra you put new ones in and tighten up the end play so the trans lives a nice long time. I'm not crazy about using vise grips on an input shaft. You can damage the splines if your not careful. I know cause I've seen it done. You can buy a magnetic base and dial indicator at Harbor Freight for about $20 to check the end play and it's very useful on many other things.
 
What I meant by they like a bunch of Play and I love having to defend every word I print on these forms is they usually have higher Factory tolerances than other makes of transmission. I think they can have and don't quote me please almost up to a hundred thousandths play and down to about .015? you know the honest truth was when I asked somebody who drag races these Transmissions what they set there tolerances at ? The answer was I've never checked LOL that just about did it for me about this subject.
Everybody knows I'm very rare about cyber spending anybody's money of course he could go down to Harbor Freight and buy some tools. Or he could be careful and use the ones that he has. For the one time that he's going to need them. The good part is he'll be able to read both of our arguments or our opinions if you will and make his own decision. I'm sure a transmission can be built with the most accurate tolerances in the world and last 300,000 miles but the truth is when you find out how easy these are to build and how quick you can do it you'll probably end up rebuilding it for fun every 40,000 miles.
my-2...

fishy68 said:
I agree that you don't always need fancy tools to rebuild a torqueflite but I don't know how you came up with "torqueflite's like a bunch of play" but that for sure isn't true. No auto trans likes a bunch of end play so the clutch carriers can beat the thrust washers to pieces. And btw: those thrust washers can and do wear out. For $12-15 extra you put new ones in and tighten up the end play so the trans lives a nice long time. I'm not crazy about using vise grips on an input shaft. You can damage the splines if your not careful. I know cause I've seen it done. You can buy a magnetic base and dial indicator at Harbor Freight for about $20 to check the end play and it's very useful on many other things.
Click to expand...
 
j par said:
What I meant by they like a bunch of Play and I love having to defend every word I print on these forms is they usually have higher Factory tolerances than other makes of transmission. I think they can have and don't quote me please almost up to a hundred thousandths play and down to about .015? you know the honest truth was when I asked somebody who drag races these Transmissions what they set there tolerances at ? The answer was I've never checked LOL that just about did it for me about this subject.
Everybody knows I'm very rare about cyber spending anybody's money of course he could go down to Harbor Freight and buy some tools. Or he could be careful and use the ones that he has. For the one time that he's going to need them. The good part is he'll be able to read both of our arguments or our opinions if you will and make his own decision. I'm sure a transmission can be built with the most accurate tolerances in the world and last 300,000 miles but the truth is when you find out how easy these are to build and how quick you can do it you'll probably end up rebuilding it for fun every 40,000 miles.
my-2...
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Ok. I read it the way you typed it and just wanted to make sure he didn't get the wrong impression that loose is just fine. Sorry but on the net it's impossible to read minds (I mean that respectfully). You are correct that Mopar factory specifications were very lenient and if not raced will last a long time. I've known racers that do them like that also but a lot of those racers pull the trans down every year or so for an inspection and freshen up so their not ran that much. They are fun to do but as for pulling them and doing it for fun, lol... I wish I could still have fun R&R'ing them. I used to lay them on my belly and press them up in there and hold them in place with one hand and a knee and start the bolts with the other hand but multilevel degenerative disc disease has a stranglehold on my back so those days are long past. That's why I nowadays usually only do bench rebuilds.
 
Look at about 7 minute mark of the video....this is the ATSG video...

And did I really say I dont check them...LOL...i do grab the input shaft and move it back n forth...if you missed a thrust washer...it will let you know...

 
MrJLR said:
So maybe I should pony up the extra money for the bolt in sprag?

Jeff
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I would. That little set screw and the press into the aluminum housing is not all that strong.
I would also get stronger band struts.
I like a solid kevlar rear band but no kevlar on the front band.
Red alto disc with kelone(sp) steels.
I also mostly use the B&M trans pac.

John Cope is a great guy to do business with.

Jmo
 
Well I'm not exactly sure how you put it and I know for a fact I didn't mention anybody's name because I don't want to quote anybody inaccurately but I was left with the feeling that this was nothing to worry about down to the hundred thousandths. I think it stopped me from my normal overthinking....
fishy68 mentioned that most racers terr down there transmissions yearly? Do you?
I already know the answer.....
70aarcuda said:
Look at about 7 minute mark of the video....this is the ATSG video...

And did I really say I dont check them...LOL...i do grab the input shaft and move it back n forth...if you missed a thrust washer...it will let you know...

Click to expand...
 
It's all good and I know we are just trying to Help. My biggest concern is trying to make sure people know how simple this is to do and to stop this Boogeyman bull crap. Too many people in the past sell their cars because there's a simple problem with there transmission. Most of us are hobbyist and not using these cars to get to work so generally we have plenty of time to work on them. I'm not big on R&R'ing the transmission but usually take the motor out at the same time. That way there's no lifting the transmission up into place per say. I know I hurt my shoulder the other day jerking on some stupid motor hoist with a engine on it. I need to stopping using my physical body as much.

fishy68 said:
Ok. I read it the way you typed it and just wanted to make sure he didn't get the wrong impression that loose is just fine. Sorry but on the net it's impossible to read minds (I mean that respectfully). You are correct that Mopar factory specifications were very lenient and if not raced will last a long time. I've known racers that do them like that also but a lot of those racers pull the trans down every year or so for an inspection and freshen up so their not ran that much. They are fun to do but as for pulling them and doing it for fun, lol... I wish I could still have fun R&R'ing them. I used to lay them on my belly and press them up in there and hold them in place with one hand and a knee and start the bolts with the other hand but multilevel degenerative disc disease has a stranglehold on my back so those days are long past. That's why I nowadays usually only do bench rebuilds.
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Jadaharabi said:
I would. That little set screw and the press into the aluminum housing is not all that strong.
I would also get stronger band struts.
I like a solid kevlar rear band but no kevlar on the front band.
Red alto disc with kelone(sp) steels.
I also mostly use the B&M trans pac.

John Cope is a great guy to do business with.

Jmo
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If you're going to order your parts from John Cope, ask him if you need the Kevlar rear band and the alto frictions and Kolene steels. A builder I used to deal with had a strong opinion about Kevlar bands, " great for stopping bullets, but doesn't absorb oil properly". He built a lot of performance transmissions and only on a HP/race transmission would he use the red frictions and kolene steels, but for normal street use with only the odd trip down the strip, a well built 727 using Raybestos waffle lined plates would more than do. His ideas, and I know that another builder may disagree. When you think about it, the 727 was found behind 440's and Hemi's with more HP than what you're aiming for.
 
I have to agree that over killing a 727 for a car is just that, over killed by a long shot.
Also my personal experience was getting my rebuild kit from a local transmission warehouse. No I don't know if these are packaged by computers? But most likely by underpaid humans. That being said all those little seals and parts can easily be misconstrued by an underpaid employee. My total Point here is if you get your kit it locally and there's a good chance someone human may put a wrong seal in or omitted one and now it's just an easy trip down to the store get one instead of a big hassle emailing back and forth trying to get one seal correct. My kit came one clutch plate short. I can go up to get another one it also came with the wrong seal for one of the clutch packs. And I actually had to go down there a third time because the rear main seal was completely wrong. And as a matter of fact we couldn't even figure out what it fit. Had I had to mail back and forth to Summit or someone it would have been a real fun deal.
transman said:
If you're going to order your parts from John Cope, ask him if you need the Kevlar rear band and the alto frictions and Kolene steels. A builder I used to deal with had a strong opinion about Kevlar bands, " great for stopping bullets, but doesn't absorb oil properly". He built a lot of performance transmissions and only on a HP/race transmission would he use the red frictions and kolene steels, but for normal street use with only the odd trip down the strip, a well built 727 using Raybestos waffle lined plates would more than do. His ideas, and I know that another builder may disagree. When you think about it, the 727 was found behind 440's and Hemi's with more HP than what you're aiming for.
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Gonna drive her one last time today then back her in the garage and up in the air she goes!

Jeff
 
If the transmission went bad and you have to rebuild it, why would you rebuild it the same way it was when it went bad?
 
MrJLR said:
Gonna drive her one last time today then back her in the garage and up in the air she goes!

Jeff
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Good luck.
I'm all about supporting guys on the forum for parts and stuff but you might find a local supplier if you get in a bind then you don't have to wait days or weeks for something to show up.
I bought my valve body for Cope and am very happy with it and all my other parts based off member recommendations. I did have a few issues needing a bushing that I ruined or some snap rings to get the right clearances in the clutches and it was a life saver being able to go pick the stuff up local and not hold up the build. Transtar is local had what I needed in stock.
Zip Code Look Up results - Transtar Industries
 
MrJLR said:
Gonna drive her one last time today then back her in the garage and up in the air she goes!

Jeff
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If you are just going to drop the trans while leaving the engine in, I suggest removing the distributor cap and radiator, so those components do not get damaged.
 
j par said:
I have to agree that over killing a 727 for a car is just that, over killed by a long shot.
Also my personal experience was getting my rebuild kit from a local transmission warehouse. No I don't know if these are packaged by computers? But most likely by underpaid humans. That being said all those little seals and parts can easily be misconstrued by an underpaid employee. My total Point here is if you get your kit it locally and there's a good chance someone human may put a wrong seal in or omitted one and now it's just an easy trip down to the store get one instead of a big hassle emailing back and forth trying to get one seal correct. My kit came one clutch plate short. I can go up to get another one it also came with the wrong seal for one of the clutch packs. And I actually had to go down there a third time because the rear main seal was completely wrong. And as a matter of fact we couldn't even figure out what it fit. Had I had to mail back and forth to Summit or someone it would have been a real fun deal.
Click to expand...
In answer to you question, no they are not packaged by computers.
The problem is from a sellers point of view what is it you need? A 904 for example may need 3-5 High Reverse frictions and 3-4 forward frictions and on the rear seal, there are 4 types, and 2 different sizes. Since the factory built these transmissions in different configurations, how does the person on the other end of your phone call know exactly what you required? I fault the seller of the kit for not asking you these questions, but perhaps you should have told him exactly what it is you needed. Some parts distributors put all frictions in their kits, some do not for sake of economy. Remember that these companies deal mostly with professional transmission shops/builders who order what is need when the transmission is apart.
Gasket and seal kits come from mainly three transmission gasket set suppliers in North America. These gasket set suppliers are Trans-Tec, Toledo and Precision. If you buy in large quantities they will even private label them for you.
As far as having the wrong lip seal for a clutch pack, it can happen. As I used to tell customers who had converter failures, God isn't one of our employees and until he is, we are stuck with a .75% annual failure rate. Not fun for you but Crap does happen.
 
sireland67 said:
If you are just going to drop the trans while leaving the engine in, I suggest removing the distributor cap and radiator, so those components do not get damaged.
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Do I remove the whole distributer or just the cap?
I will remove the fan.....

Jeff
 
Agreed that's what the transmission place told me when they gave me the extra steel or the extra clutch I think it was because they're trying to make their packages a little bit cheaper so people will buy theirs. But also like you said that anybody could packages strong and no matter what happened that rear seal wasn't going to fit anything Mopar.

transman said:
In answer to you question, no they are not packaged by computers.
The problem is from a sellers point of view what is it you need? A 904 for example may need 3-5 High Reverse frictions and 3-4 forward frictions and on the rear seal, there are 4 types, and 2 different sizes. Since the factory built these transmissions in different configurations, how does the person on the other end of your phone call know exactly what you required? I fault the seller of the kit for not asking you these questions, but perhaps you should have told him exactly what it is you needed. Some parts distributors put all frictions in their kits, some do not for sake of economy. Remember that these companies deal mostly with professional transmission shops/builders who order what is need when the transmission is apart.
Gasket and seal kits come from mainly three transmission gasket set suppliers in North America. These gasket set suppliers are Trans-Tec, Toledo and Precision. If you buy in large quantities they will even private label them for you.
As far as having the wrong lip seal for a clutch pack, it can happen. As I used to tell customers who had converter failures, God isn't one of our employees and until he is, we are stuck with a .75% annual failure rate. Not fun for you but Crap does happen.
Click to expand...
 
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