First time mods on my 318 and it won't start...

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Darth

Darth

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Hi folks

Backstory:
Driving our cars can't be enough, right? So we have to start tinkering around, right? Well, I do. Perfectly aware of the fact, that I often only have a rough idea of what I'm doing (having learned most of what I know out of books, forums, youtube vids, ect. - things will go wrong, but I want to learn and have to start somewhere...), I've formed a plan to replace the 2bbl setup on my 71 Dart to a beefy (ahem) 4bbl. Goal: a wee bit more power and overall good performance; no race car. I intend to drive it on the street only. Oh and fix some of the oil leaks around the block; the poor thing is a self-moving oil spillage...

Now then, after reading through a gazillion forum posts about what parts I should get, the following things had been ordered:
  • Weiand Stealth manifold (new)
  • FelPro gasket set
  • Edelbrock 1403 (500cfm) carb (used)
  • Carb calibration kit
  • various bits and pieces, hose adapters, fuel line, etc.
The ignition already had the Chrysler electronic ignition, stock distributor and stock coil. The fuelpump is still original, headers are stock but exhaling into dual exhausts.

Ripping it all apart and cleaning up was surprisingly easy (remember, I'm doing this for the first time, no help from any friends or other physically present advisors, only "The Internet"), the manifold went in there, carb on top (linkage is still a mess...), as far as I can tell everything is connected and ready to go for a first engine test.

I've bought a used carburetor as it was an okay deal and I thought I could save some money while risking "issues" carb-vise. The previous owner disabled the choke linkage; I couldn't figure out how to reconnect everything for it to work so I just left it as it was for the time being. I didn't take the carb apart (they still seem overly complicated to me at the moment). It looked clean and not much used so I had high hopes that it would run out of the box. I am quite sure it wouldn't run nice and smooth but it would run...

The issue:
I turned the key, the motor started cranking. After a few turns I checked the carb; while opening the throttle lever gas squished out - seems to be working. Now I wanted to properly start the engine and cranked it again. It immediately fired up but died as quickly again. I did this a few more times, always with the same result. It seems to come alive but dies immediately. Apart from the vacuum advance hose (which has to be replaced as it is too short and brittle anyway), valve cover breather and the transmission linkage I think everything is hooked up.

I've filmed one attempt, maybe I can make it available somewhere.

Before I start rummaging through the engine bay without really knowing what to look for, does what I'm describing here sound familiar to anybody so you could point me in the right direction to check?

Sorry for the long read, just wanted to throw in all information I thought to be relevant...

Thank you!
Timo
 
Check your timing .
Maybe it is off now .
Also check firing order and make sure coil is wired correct .
Should be simple .
Good luck.
 
If you have electronic ignition it has been converted from point type. It sounds like when the ballast resistor is burned out. Will the engine run as long as you are cranking it?
 
So all you changed was the intake/carb? Did it run OK before you made the changes?

If so, then you'll need to find the issue in what you changed. It's possible you have a giant vacuum leak somewhere.
 
toolmanmike said:
It sounds like when the ballast resistor is burned out.
Click to expand...

Sure does, but he didn't say he messed with anything in the ignition.

OP, if you crank it and it starts but immediately quits when the key is released, it could be the ballast resistor. To check it, pull the plugs off of it and use a small piece of wire as a jumper between the two wires, and see if it starts and stays running.
 
Always tough to diagnose problems like this over the net. Process of elimination is our only diagnostic tool.
 
Bad Sport said:
So all you changed was the intake/carb? Did it run OK before you made the changes?

If so, then you'll need to find the issue in what you changed. It's possible you have a giant vacuum leak somewhere.
Click to expand...

This! Is the rear vacuum port blocked off.
 
It sounds like you're hungry, want to make a tasty dinner and are hoping it can be done with the ingredients you already have in your cupboard and fridge without needing to go to the store. You kinda know what you want so you take out all the ingredients but are unsure of how they all fit together. Instead of making sure you cook the root vegetable longer (carrots, potatoes) while the asperagus and chicken or steak for less time, you toss all the ingredients into one pan and hope for the best. It's kinda been cooking now for 10 minutes and the meat is looking burnt but the carrots are still rock hard. You scoop all of it onto a plate, take the first bite and you are disappointed.

You have done the same thing with your 4bbl upgrade. You kinda know the carb/choke is working properly and the linkages to it are not right. However, deep down you were hoping it would all just, somehow, work. Your best bet is to head back to the drawing board and ensure each component works before you add another component.
 
Wow, you guys are quick!

Just to answer your questions
  • can't check timing yet (tool is in the mail...)
  • haven't done anything with the ignition system (apart from removing & reinstalling the distributor)
  • car ran fine with old manifold and carb
  • engine does run a few more seconds before dying when I keep on cranking
  • rear vacuum port is shut
@H22A4: very nicely described and I admit you are right (just leave the aspargus, hate that...;) ). I know I'll have to tackle the transmission-linkage before it can drive but for now I just wanted to see if the whole setup generally works; does the engine start, how does it idle (does it at all)? Then fix what I've for now considered to be secondary issues.

Thank you all for your suggestions so far (and H22A4 for straightenig me out a bit :) ).
 
At 180 out it will not start...just backfire thru the carb....

put engine on #1 TDC on compression stroke...remove distributor cap...rotor should be pointing at number 1 on the distributor cap....
 
First thing to do is get a timing light and set timing.......you can do this ON THE STARTER it does not need to run.

Then try to figure out....maybe the floats are sticking in the carb, maybe the idle jets are plugged, hard to say. Beg or borrow a known working 4bbl carb and try a different one.............
 
The fact that the engine fires off shows the timing is not waaay off.

I think this is pretty simple: you don't have a working choke. The engine is firing off from the fuel that is put in when you pump the throttle prior to firing, but it does not have enough fuel to continue running without a working choke to enrich the mixture when cold.

Try the following simple test: Pump the throttle to the floor 2x and then crank; as soon as it fires, try pumping the accelerator about 1/4 to the floor every 1 second or so; that will pump added gas into the carb via the accelerator pump (which is what you saw squirting gas in to the carb throat), and simulate the choke action in that way. If the lack of choke is the problem, then this will probably, keep it running 'til it warms up; if you get your technique right.

(If all you have ever driven is modern fuel injected cars, then the FI system does this injection of extra fuel for you without a choke, and since there is no accelerator pump in an FI system, this light pumping does not work anyway.)
 
nm9stheham said:
Try the following simple test: Pump the throttle to the floor 2x and then crank; as soon as it fires, try pumping the accelerator about 1/4 to the floor every 1 second or so; that will pump added gas into the carb via the accelerator pump (which is what you saw squirting gas in to the carb throat), and simulate the choke action in that way. If the lack of choke is the problem, then this will probably, keep it running 'til it warms up; if you get your technique right.
Click to expand...
Gop'vrdälli, try that! :)
 
nm9stheham said:
Try the following simple test: Pump the throttle to the floor 2x and then crank; as soon as it fires, try pumping the accelerator about 1/4 to the floor every 1 second or so; that will pump added gas into the carb via the accelerator pump (which is what you saw squirting gas in to the carb throat), and simulate the choke action in that way. If the lack of choke is the problem, then this will probably, keep it running 'til it warms up; if you get your technique right.
Click to expand...

Just annoyed my neighbors with yadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayada-wrooom sounds on a light Sunday evening. :) Your test worked; well, partially. It works somewhat while I more or less constantly pump a little bit on the gas. The engine isn't really idling or in a state that it could actually warm up; the whole thing is very erratic - my pumping certainly doesen't help.
I took the carb off after this - the manifold/carb gasket was already soaked with gas (by the way: does this gasket have to bee RTV'ed or not? I somewhere read not to but am not sure...).

@stixx: iiu, gmacht! :)

Well, to sum it up, I'm going to have to figure out how this carb should be assembled in the first place. Will go picture hunting now...

A big thank you to all of you - it is great to have people willing to share their knowledge available (and so quickly - I'm still amazed)!

Timo
 
^^You should be able to find "the book" on that carb right at the Edelbrok website^^
 
OK, well it sounds like the engine is basically running, but that the lack of a choke and maybe some other carb issues are preventing it from getting a consistent fuel-air mixture. This seems to rule out the ballast or the timing being way off. The symptoms could also point to a bad gasket seal in the intake somewhere, or a bad vacuum hose. Do you have a vacuum gauge?

Not having the ignition timing re-adjusted may also be a problem; you may be close but not really where it should be for a cold idle. You can set the timing close without a timing light....

No you don't have to RTV that gasket. I suspect most people generally don't.

Find out how to check the float level on the carb, and the next time it is on, after you have had it run for a bit check the float levels.
 
Darth said:
The issue:
I turned the key, the motor started cranking. After a few turns I checked the carb; while opening the throttle lever gas squished out - seems to be working. Now I wanted to properly start the engine and cranked it again. It immediately fired up but died as quickly again. I did this a few more times, always with the same result. It seems to come alive but dies immediately. Apart from the vacuum advance hose (which has to be replaced as it is too short and brittle anyway), valve cover breather and the transmission linkage I think everything is hooked up.

Timo
Click to expand...
A large vacuum leak can do this^^^^
 
I know you said carbs seem complicated right now but I think that carb really should be pulled apart, cleaned, and adjusted to baseline idle settings. If you don't have a large vacuum leak somewhere and the ignition timing is close enough then dirt and debris in the idle circuits will definitely cause problems. The idle mixture and speed may be way off as well. Spray the whole thing down with carb cleaner first if it's dirty so it's easier to work with and just take your time disconnecting the linkages. There are only 2 or 3 you need to disconnect to get the top of the carb body off. Edelbrocks (and most popular 4-barrels for that matter) are pretty simple once you learn how they work. Not like the stuff that came on older European and Japanese cars lol.
 
X's2 on going through the carb. Sounds like you can keep it running on the accelerator pump by pumping it. I'm thinking the idle circuits are clogged.
 
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