Forged piston brand selection

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1967formulaS

1967formulaS

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So I've pulled the 440 out of the barracuda and stripped it down.
She is a virgin bore 76 model which is running a forged factory crank( I put that in), factory cast rods and factory cast pistons. Looks like she will need a bore and hohn so I'm shopping around for new pistons.
I'm using stock 516 closed chamber heads that are still in good condition. I also have the set of the late 440 open chamber heads that came off this engine as am alternative option.
Unfortunately I'm on a budget now as I blew alot on the dana s60, hemi 18 spline and everything else.
I'm looking at speeders/TRW forged flattop pistons
But apparently they are too heavy and old technology. How bad can they be, TRW have been around for years.?
Ross, icon,diamond, Kb, are all up around $1000 Here in Australia by the time you ship them and pay duty etc.
440 source ones are also an option.
Also my machine guy said to buy pistons first and then he can bore it. I would have thought it was the other way around. Do I just go with 30" over? Sounds weird.

Any input is appreciated.
 
You want cheap or you want very good..speedpro trw =cheap..Diamond Ross=very good that's why Diamond are going into my new build..
 
1967formulaS said:
So I've pulled the 440 out of the barracuda and stripped it down.
She is a virgin bore 76 model which is running a forged factory crank( I put that in), factory cast rods and factory cast pistons. Looks like she will need a bore and hohn so I'm shopping around for new pistons.
I'm using stock 516 closed chamber heads that are still in good condition. I also have the set of the late 440 open chamber heads that came off this engine as am alternative option.
Unfortunately I'm on a budget now as I blew alot on the dana s60, hemi 18 spline and everything else.
I'm looking at speeders/TRW forged flattop pistons
But apparently they are too heavy and old technology. How bad can they be, TRW have been around for years.?
Ross, icon,diamond, Kb, are all up around $1000 Here in Australia by the time you ship them and pay duty etc.
440 source ones are also an option.
Also my machine guy said to buy pistons first and then he can bore it. I would have thought it was the other way around. Do I just go with 30" over? Sounds weird.

Any input is appreciated.
Click to expand...


Well first, what are your goals? Mild 440, maybe 500 horse, or are you wanting a screamer making 6 to 700?

I went l2355 speed pros, yes they are a tad heavy, but they are budget friendly and seem to last fine. With my combo, I'm looking at 10:1 and will be running trick flow heads, I pretty much am copying one of IQ52s combos minus the heads. My goal is 500 flywheel and it should easily exceed it.

That said, for a mild 10:1, 500 hp build, I felt the speed pros were perfect. I put the savings towards the head budget. If I were going for a every hp counts type build, I would have gone diamond

As for piston bore size, really depends on your block, if there's any rust or gouges, that'll determine how far you have to bore it. Mine had very little but still needed .030 to take out a couple tiny spots.
 
I used Diamond...very nice stuff. He wants your pistons so he can properly fit the bores, any decent machinist will do it that way. Order the pistons in the size he says....hand them to him and let him work his magic
 
I wouldn't worry about the brand too much until you figure out exactly what you need. What compression ratio do you want, pin size?, bore size?, types of rings?, piston material?, valve lift?, bobweight requirement?, etc.

Odds are that once you figure out your requirements there might only be one or two brands that offer the combination of specs that you are looking for.
 
Minor correction- all factory rods up til the 3g hemi v8s (and slant 6s) were and are forged, not cast.
 
He wants your pistons before boring the block because the clearance has to be held to just about exactly .0025". If tighter, the pistons might seize because forged pistons expand more than cast pistons when they get hot; but if over, you may get piston slap when the engine is cold. The mark of a good engine builder, IMHO, is one who can assemble an engine with forged pistons and have no piston slap when cold.
 
Keith Black has pistons for your engine too. A friend is putting together a 500 horse engine (hopeful) and is using KB's. 10.5's I believe. I have a photo on my phone which I will post in a bit.
 
1967formulaS said:
Thanks guys.
I'll be aiming for around 450-500hp and plan to spend the cash on trickflow heads next year.
Click to expand...
Trick Flow heads have a small chamber so if that is what you are going to run then you need to plan ahead and buy pistons that will give you the correct compression ratio with the small chamber.
 
famous bob said:
Icon pistons are pretty decent too.
Click to expand...

toolmanmike said:
Keith Black has pistons for your engine too. A friend is putting together a 500 horse engine (hopeful) and is using KB's. 10.5's I believe. I have a photo on my phone which I will post in a bit.
Click to expand...

Icon forged pistons and the Hyperutetic Alloy cast pistons both are Keith Black products.
 
Here's the KB's
20161014_135814.jpeg
20161014_135820.jpeg
 
KB pistons are not forged. They are hypereutectic. The Icon pistons are the forged line. Both are made by United Engine and Machine. The hypers marketed under the KB name and the forged marketed under the Icon name. They are two totally different pistons.
 
toolmanmike said:
Keith Black has pistons for your engine too. A friend is putting together a 500 horse engine (hopeful) and is using KB's. 10.5's I believe. I have a photo on my phone which I will post in a bit.
Click to expand...

I used the KB hypers in mine.
 
Ok.cool, thanks guys. :)
Engine guy called today and said 0.30" will clean it up nicely. He also said I need new cam and lifters, but to get him some pistons asap and think about what cam i want to run.
I need to find pistons that will suit the 78cc aeroflow heads , so I've come up with the following.
PTS53183 wiseco have ones in 10.7:1 which should do the trick.
IC9953.030 in the icon/Kb forged range which have them at 10.6:1 with 80cc head.

The wiseco uses a 1/16 rings and the Icon piston uses the 5/65 rings? Why the difference?

So far the TRW pistons are either too high or too low on the compression with a 78cc head, so I might just go with one of the above.

This car will see the strip and I'd love to run a roller cam, but funds don't allow it at this stage. The old cam is an unknown item but I did measure a 470" lift with matching springs . What is safe to go with STD rocker gear and old iron heads?
I'm also using a victor 440 manifold and I have an 850 holley on there at present but have an old school 1050 dominator ready to bolt on as well if needed.
I have 28" tyres on rear,new s60 dana with 4.3 ratio, fresh hemi 4 speed by brewers,ram Borg and beck Hd clutch, still got v8 torsion bars and rear springs, comp eng adjustable shocks front and rear.
I will be getting SS springs, 6 cylinder torsion bars and some qa1 shocks next year.

My cuda needs to beat my good mates
1958 ford mainline ute. It does however have a stout 352 hemi that's supercharged, tilt fibreglass front end, auto, 4 link 9 inch. It's heavy but runs low 11's now and should get into high 10"s. Wonder if I'll ha e a chance?:)
 
x3 Forged

For cams I would advise you to look at the Crane CRN-680201. I would run this with 1.6 Ratio rockers and use a 4,000 stall convertor. A 10" or a tight 9".

You'd have a chance against your buddy with this combo.
 
So I sent a few links of some piston choices to my engine builder and he sent back the following piston selection due to the ideal compression height of 2.061" which will bring it 0.019" down the hole and a good starting point of 10.17:1 compression.
I couldn't find the same thing in a KB, Icon or wiseco.

Screenshot_2016-10-26-19-35-58.png
 
roccodart440 said:
x3 Forged

For cams I would advise you to look at the Crane CRN-680201. I would run this with 1.6 Ratio rockers and use a 4,000 stall convertor. A 10" or a tight 9".

You'd have a chance against your buddy with this combo.
Click to expand...
That's a nice grind,Rocco... Seen lots of sweetness,with Crane Cam solid flat tappets in B/Rb Mopar builds... Not the newest,THEY FLAT WORK....
 
1967formulaS said:
So I sent a few links of some piston choices to my engine builder and he sent back the following piston selection due to the ideal compression height of 2.061" which will bring it 0.019" down the hole and a good starting point of 10.17:1 compression.
I couldn't find the same thing in a KB, Icon or wiseco.

View attachment 1714983179
Click to expand...
Speed Pro's,o.k. (my opinion) ...Just don't spend 6-800 bucks,on old technology. If you feel safe with it,go for it...
 
1967formulaS said:
The wiseco uses a 1/16 rings and the Icon piston uses the 5/65 rings? Why the difference?
Click to expand...

Wiseco and many other piston mfrs (Diamond, JE/SRP, Arias, Ross...) like to use the thinner rings because they create less friction. But, most of the off the shelf slugs for first and second gen pushrod engines (Speed Pro, KB, etc) use legacy ring packs (5/64, 5/64, 3/16) because they're cheaper and readily available.

That's the ONLY thing I'm not a terribly big fan of with piston selection on older engines...sounds petty and very likely inconsequential, I agree, but I have idiosyncrasies just like everyone else.
 
1967formulaS said:
So I sent a few links of some piston choices to my engine builder and he sent back the following piston selection due to the ideal compression height of 2.061" which will bring it 0.019" down the hole and a good starting point of 10.17:1 compression.
I couldn't find the same thing in a KB, Icon or wiseco.

View attachment 1714983179
Click to expand...

Did you go on the UEM website? They give the specs you need to determine the amount and type of machining and rotating assembly setup.

Ex:

ICON Forged Piston - Chry 440 Rod 6.768 Step Dish 12cc 2V [IC836] - $689.39 : United Engine & Machine Co. Incorporated, Performance Pistons

It's a different format, but all the same info is there.

Can't speak for Wiseco, but the KB hyper slugs are on the same website as the Icons...just follow the dropdowns and prompts.

This is probably a better example since it has the stock pin diameter:

ICON Forged Piston - Chry 440 Rod 6.768 Flat Top 4.5cc 2V [IC968] - $689.39 : United Engine & Machine Co. Incorporated, Performance Pistons
 
txstang84 said:
Wiseco and many other piston mfrs (Diamond, JE/SRP, Arias, Ross...) like to use the thinner rings because they create less friction. But, most of the off the shelf slugs for first and second gen pushrod engines (Speed Pro, KB, etc) use legacy ring packs (5/64, 5/64, 3/16) because they're cheaper and readily available.

That's the ONLY thing I'm not a terribly big fan of with piston selection on older engines...sounds petty and very likely inconsequential, I agree, but I have idiosyncrasies just like everyone else.
Click to expand...

The 1/16 ring pack is medium performance today, the 5/64 ring pack would be considered stock replacement or lower performance. The high performance rings are the metric sizes or 0.043. You can find 1mm ring packs or 0.043 ring packs for Mopar engines but it might take a little work. Not too many shelf pistons come that way, Mahle might be the only one.
 
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