Hard starting 360.

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Clelan

Inferno Red Duster
FABO Gold Member
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My 74 Duster with stock ignition, a 360, 904 is having trouble starting recently. I will crank it over no problem with no fire. When it does start, it always fires right when I turn the key back to the run position from the start position. I don't think it can be in the ignition switch because it whirls over great. When it's hot it won't start at all. I have a FSM but I'm not home right now to look at it. When I get home tonight I will start trying song things.

Has anyone had this problem before? I think I'm going to run 12 volts to the coil + terminal and see if that helps it start as I honestly don't think it is getting spark while cranking with the key. Of course I'll disconnect it right away when it's running.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

Cley
 
Check the ballast resistor one side is in the run position the other is in the cranking position.
 
I just went through this also on my 74 dart. I found a bad switch. Get the wiring diagram and chase it back, You have voltage at the ballast while cranking?
 
A lot of times if you are only getting spark in the run position and not in the start position the engine will fire up as soon as you let go of the key.
Just for kicks make sure the distributor pigtail is tight.
Crimp both of the female sockets on it a little to be sure, as I have seen a few cars where it was loosing connection when it got warmed up.
 
You have a problem with Ignition 2 which is the brown wire feed to the ballast resistor. Check for 12 vdc in crank position at the ignition switch, firewall connector and ballast wire.
 
If it runs by jumpering 12 volts directly to the coil+, don't be in a panic to disconnect it. The ballast resistor normally takes several minutes to heat up and cut the power to around 7 volts or a little more. The system is robust enough to run on even 13 to 14 volts.
I'm not saying you should make a beer run that way, but you could.....
Eventually, the coil might/will overheat, and possibly experience a nuclear meltdown, but it would probably run for a few hours,or days. Some coils I'm sure could run that way for years.
So don't panic....
 
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I'm going to get after this in the morning since I'm home now. I was just looking at the FSM and I'm going to check it for loose connections as suggested but then I am going to try a jumper from the starter + to the coil + and see if that helps. The way I figure it will give the coil battery voltage while cranking if I do t h at. If that works then I'll chase the problem in the brown wire. I see that brown wire is connected to the yellow starter relay trigger wire anyway.

Cley
 
So I get 1 spark out of the coil when I turn the key on and another when I turn the key to run. I ohmed out all my wiring and cleaned and confirmed all the connections I could find. I ohmed out the key switch comparing it to the FSM and it shows good. I replaced the coil because it tested bad 11k ohms on the high side and open on the low side. I'm not super confident the coil is bad because it ran so good once I got it to start. I looked at the reluctor and it appears it has made contact before. I checked the gap and it looks ok. I'm thinking it must be in the distributor. I see no spark at all at the plug. Voltage is good at the ballast resistor and the coil. I checked the coil + to coil - and it shows no voltage while cranking however there is voltage to chassis ground. Maybe that means the ignition box. I'm getting frustrated!

Cley
 
If the factory type ignition passes the 1-spark test out of the coil tower, you can almost bet that the following items are ok; ECU,coil,ignition sw, and wiring to the ballast, and at least one side of a dual ballast; the side that feeds the ECU on a 5-pin system.

That just leaves 4 checks; 1) make sure the distributor driveshaft spins when the engine cranks,and 2) the trigger system, and 3) the secondary ignition system, and 4) the ballast resistor.

Trigger test;
There are two ways to test the trigger;in circuit and out. The out test is to check it's resistance and compare it to the spec, which might be 200 to 600 ohms,IDK, but more than 100 and less than 1000.
The second way and my favorite; is to pull it off the plate and pass anything iron across the magnet, in either direction, to simulate the reluctor. With the ignition in run, a stream of sparks should issue from the coil tower wire to near ground. The dizzy can stay in the hole. Another way is to pop the reluctor off, and again excite the trigger with an iron/steel screwdriver.
Not having sparks does not mean for sure the trigger is dead. Yes it still could be the coil or even the ECU.
There is a third test but you will need an old analog multi-meter. You can check the actual signal output across the two wires by putting the meter to A/C millivolts, and exciting the trigger with the iron/steel screwdriver. Seeing the needle jump off zero in sync with the excitation,proves the trigger works.
Coil test;
The coil can be ohmed out. Again IDK the specs but here it is not critical. The primary side should be very low, like under 2 ohms but not shorted. The secondary side should be very high, like 7,000 times as much as the primary. so,Ima guessing around 10,000ohms. To see if it actually works you can just remove all wires from the coil, and jumper 12v to the + terminal and tickle the negative side to ground. I use a 15 inch coarse file laying on the intake and just drag a wire from the -side across it. As the wire makes and breaks contact a stream of sparks should issue from the secondary tower to near-ground.
The Ballast
Simple test is to ohm it out; both sides should be less than say 5 ohms-cold, but more than 1. I like to draw current through them using a signal light bulb. Bulb lights means ballast good.
ECU test
I'm not an electronics guy, but I've never had one pass the 1-spark test and fail to run the engine, unless it was poorly grounded.
Parting shots
I used to carry spares of the ballast and trigger and ECU, to solve by substitution, which is really fast, but fails to exercise my brain. But after many years of not needing anything other than the occasional ballast,I started carrying only that guy.I currently have 17 years on the big yellow Accell coil, so I can highly recommend that bad boy. If it turns out you need a trigger;be advised to replace it with one having the same colored wires, one of which is usually orange.I have seen a reverse polarity trigger with no Orange wire(I think it was gray). The reluctor will fire from zero gap to about .030, so don't panic to get it exactly at .008. I have been running .011 for decades, which means as the bushings in the dizzy wear out, my spark still works.When all else fails pull some current through the blue coil wire by connecting a known-to-work signal bulb up to it. Sometimes a splice, or a connection somewhere (often at the ballast) goes bad.There are two splices; one inside the car up above the column, and another along the firewall. The bulkhead connectors are also a known trouble-spot.If you are having other electrical issues too, then check the wires at the back of the ammeter;with the battery disconnected! They occasionally come loose over time :(
I think Del (67Dart273) made a thread or even a sticky on this stuff
Good luck
 
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If the factory type ignition passes the 1-spark test out of the coil tower, you can almost bet that the following items are ok; ECU,coil,ignition sw, and wiring to the ballast.

What's left then? I just changed the pick up and it changed nothing.

Cley
 
I see that brown wire is connected to the yellow starter relay trigger wire anyway.

Cley

I do not think that is correct for original wiring. It should go to ignition switch IGN2. If brown wire goes to yellow start wire, in "run" the ballast resistor will back feed the starter relay, possibly keeping the starter cranking, or drawing undesired current, heating ballast and lowering voltage to coil.
 
I do not think that is correct for original wiring. It should go to ignition switch IGN2. If brown wire goes to yellow start wire, in "run" the ballast resistor will back feed the starter relay, possibly keeping the starter cranking, or drawing undesired current, heating ballast and lowering voltage to coil.

I looked at it and I now see they are different wires coming out of the ignition switch. In the schematics I originally thought it was 2 wires junctioned.

Cley
 
Sorry AJ, I didn't see your entire post before responding. You gave me lots more insite. I really appreciate it!

Cley.
 
So here is what I have done so far,

  • I replaced the ballast resistor right off the start. NO CHANGE

  • I ran a jumper wire from the battery – to the ECM NO CHANGE

  • I checked the brown IGN2 wire for continuity right from the key switch to the ballast resistor and coil and it shows good. I cleaned up the connections in the bulkhead and the other 8 pin (6 are used) connector in the engine bay

  • I checked the blue run wire for continuity right from the key switch to the ballast resistor and it shows good. I cleaned up the connections in the bulkhead and the other 8 pin (6 are used) connector in the engine bay

  • I have power (A little over 10.5 volts) on the brown wire in start and on the blue wire in run at the ballast resistor.

  • I checked all the ignition related wiring under hood for continuity and found no problems.

  • I replaced the coil (MSD Blaster 2) as I believe it ohms out bad. NO CHANGE

  • I found these values over at mymopar.com. 0.75 to 0.81 ohms between coil + and coil -, and 10k to 11k ohms center post to secondary. I was good on the high voltage side, but I got erratic readings when I initially tested it on auto range meter setting, and it read open when I changed to 0 – 1 ohm range. I measured my new coil and it fell exactly in the middle of these specs.

  • I pulled the distributor out and looked at the pick-up coil and reluctor. It appeared that they likely came in contact a little at some point so I changed the pick-up coil. NO CHANGE
So next, I will test my new pick-up coil and see if it is sending signal as AJ suggested. But honestly, if you have power to the coil and no spark output then it must be the trigger. And if it is the trigger, that must mean the pick-up coil to ECM. Or am I missing something here?

What drives me nuts is the fact that when I could get it to start, it would run great, so is it only triggering when the key is in run and not in start? Is this even possible?

Cley
 
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The 10.5V at brown wire in "start" is too low, it should be close to battery voltage. You should also find the same voltage at +coil terminal. Check that out, might be a problem. I assume reading is with wires connected to coil, and cranking.

If your battery is at 10.5V unloaded, it could be discharged or defective. If battery measures 12.6V, it is charged, and voltage drop is in faulty connections, wiring or switch.
 
My 74 Duster with stock ignition, a 360, 904 is having trouble starting recently. I will crank it over no problem with no fire. When it does start, it always fires right when I turn the key back to the run position from the start position. I don't think it can be in the ignition switch because it whirls over great. When it's hot it won't start at all. I have a FSM but I'm not home right now to look at it. When I get home tonight I will start trying song things.

Has anyone had this problem before? I think I'm going to run 12 volts to the coil + terminal and see if that helps it start as I honestly don't think it is getting spark while cranking with the key. Of course I'll disconnect it right away when it's running.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

Cley
I have seen this problem in a Ford but it was due to the oxygen sensor which I believe you do not have.
 
I grounded everything and I checked everything. All checked out. Finally I swapped my wires on the load side of the Dual ballast resistor and it fires right up. My only concern is, will the ECU survive with the higher voltage from the 1.2 ohm resistor feed? Is this a sign of a bad ECU?

I do realize that as stated above, I have a lower than should be primary voltage going to my coil. I'll need an ignition switch to fix this. I may however at least temporarily install a couple relays fired by the Blue "RUN" wire and the Brown "START" wire to get proper battery voltage where it needs to be both for the ignition system and the charging system.

Cley
 
My dual ballast has 1 side that measures 5.5 ohms cold and the other side measures 1.2 ohms cold. The wire that goes to the ECM was on the 5.5 ohm side and the brown start/coil + wire was on the 1.2 ohm side. When I switched them and gave more voltage to the ECM it sparked right away.

Cley
 
That might indicate a bad ecm. A modern ecu with 4 active pins has a built-in regulator. The older ones use a zener diode and resistor. I think you can swap in the new ecu, and it might work without the need for 5 Ohm ballast. The newer ones get power from pin 1, pin 3 is unused.
 
Just because a resistor ohms in the ballpark doesn't mean it's any good. The real test is if you can pull current through it.

I mean imagine trying to start your car with a 14ga wire. The wire resistance would be ok, but obviously that skinny wire will not let enough juice through to even activate the starter, much less crank the engine.
same goes for the resistor.
But you know that the ECU gets it's ground through the case right? So the unit is screwed onto the apron, and that is it's ground. If there is a high resistance connection there,then the ECU may not pull enough current through even a perfect ballast, to properly function.
Furthermore,the ballast is connected through those flimsy spade connectors. Which tend to corrode over time. And become high resistance connections.Starving the downstream components. Slipping in a new ballast does not solve the problem. Testing, by pulling current through it with a signal bulb usually proves the circuit. Or at least it has worked for me for several decades.And it's a quick, simple, and easy test.
I have replaced many spade connectors.Especially in circuits that don't draw a lot of juice.Like this one.
 
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