Instrument gremlins.

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garyfish340

garyfish340

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I'm not exactly panicing, because I have a lot of time on my hands with winter. So I'm in no rush. Plus I wouldn't doubt a few issues are coincidental. ( Because my speedo is also stuck at 25, and it worked before the engine swap.)
I have hardly any instruments working on the dash of my 1975 duster. I swapped the engine for a gen 3 hemi, wired the headlights for H4 bulbs using relays, I also swapped the column shift, for a floor shift column ( Norm's). and removed the seatbelt interlock system.
The car runs perfect. The fuel level gauge works pefect. The brake warning light works, as do the rear brake lights, key buzzer, and the headlights. The windshield wipers seem are a bit slow, but the windshield wash works. The directionals don't work, ( the socket for the front drivers side blinker is broke, but will take the bulb, and hold into the back of the lamp) The bulb on the drivers side, side marker is dead, or doesn't work, and the horn is a joke, almost non audible. I wired the violet wire to the temp sending unit, but it's not responding. the grey wire is waiting for the correct oil pressure sending unit ( the one I have is wrong, and for a gauge. ) The dash doesn't light up at night, no matter how I play with the healight switch. And either the previous owner has bypassed the ammeter, or it's dead too. It looks like the blinker, and horn relays are in place, but the car came with a 3 prong relay in the glove box ( Chysler pn # 93596-A ) Don't know what, or where it came from . I know very little about wiring, but I almost suspect the little voltage regulator, on the back of the instument cluster.
I have a set of 2 1/4" autometer gauges ( volt, temp, and scratch the oil pressure, because I hate the idea of oil lines in my interior.) Can the volt, and temp be fitted into the dash, where the factory amp, and temp are, or is the headlight switch too bulky to allow that ? Is the circuit board a major hurdle for soldering ? This is a hot rod not a resto. When I look at pictures of cicuitboards on google images, it looks like there maybe more than one circuit board behind the instrument panel, is it one piece or several ? I guess I would like to fit an volt, and temp on the left, or the instrument cluster, and a electrical oil pressure gauge where the idiot lights are on the right.
I'd appreciate any ideas. I do think the right side bulkhead connector on the engine bay side of the firewall is in bad condition. I have better connectors that I could replace that with, if all I have to do is some soldering. thanks.
 

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cudajim said:
Too much information. Get to the point quickly and you'll get more responses.
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Dear People,
My instrument panel is broken. Thanx... lol.... Oh, and have a great thanksgiving.

I discribed it that way, because somebody will say, " Hey when you did this, did you forget to hook up that." There are guy here, that live, and breath these cars, and know every millimeter, and have seen every trick, or issue that can be thown their way. This forum is gold.
What I really want to do is remove the whole instrument cluster, and graft in some aftermarket gauges, and do a nice clean job over the winter. I just don't know if that's feesable with the factory circuit board set up. Summit sells an aftermarket instrument panel for Dusters, but they look aftermarket too. I want mine to look like, " this is the way it should have left Chysler."
If anybody has photos, please post them. Thanks
 
What diagnostics have you done ? Let's start with the speedometer being stuck at 25 mph.
 
If your fuel gauge is working then the small stock voltage limiter behind the dash is working. The temp gauge issue is either can be anyhwre in the PC board, the temp gauge, then wires and bulkhead connector out to the sender, the sender itself, or the sender ground in the block. If you want to try to figure out the stock temp gauge, then disconnect the wire from the temp sender and connect it to a 12v test light; you should see a pulsing light. If so, then all is good to that point and it is just the sender. If not, then you have to work your way back into the instrument panel and find the problem.

The instrument lights out is often casued the dimmer rheostat in the headlight switch. Easy to replace the switch. There is an INST fuse in the fuse panel to check first though. The instrument ligths wiring is described in this thread: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=296230

If you speedo is reading 25 mph all the time, even stopped, then it is in the speedo itself. It's not clear about when it is doing this. Somone has fixed these and has posted on this forum somewhere, but replacement is the most common fix.
 
nm9stheham said:
If your fuel gauge is working then the small stock voltage limiter behind the dash is working. The temp gauge issue is either can be anyhwre in the PC board, the temp gauge, then wires and bulkhead connector out to the sender, the sender itself, or the sender ground in the block. If you want to try to figure out the stock temp gauge, then disconnect the wire from the temp sender and connect it to a 12v test light; you should see a pulsing light. If so, then all is good to that point and it is just the sender. If not, then you have to work your way back into the instrument panel and find the problem.

The instrument lights out is often casued the dimmer rheostat in the headlight switch. Easy to replace the switch. There is an INST fuse in the fuse panel to check first though. The instrument ligths wiring is described in this thread: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=296230

If you speedo is reading 25 mph all the time, even stopped, then it is in the speedo itself. It's not clear about when it is doing this. Somone has fixed these and has posted on this forum somewhere, but replacement is the most common fix.
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Okay. This may, or may not help. I had absolutely no time to mess with the car after posting this. Because while messing with the car, I lost the keys to my van ( which is my only transport ) Since I was bleeding brakes that day, I thought, " Oh god, they fell out of my pocket, and into the massive sea of leaves, in my giant driveway. That lead to me having to drive the Duster Late friday night. Since I had a 6 mile journey, I was actually more able to see what, it does, and doesn't do. (Before I was tooling around the driveway.) The dash does light up. It's just awful dim, so dim you don't notice the dash lights during the day. Plus the speedometer functions normally once you pass 25 M.P.H., I have no blinkers. Maybe that has something to do with my H4 headlight wiring. The confusing thing to me is, the front harness shouldn't affect the rear lights, right ?
( These are my test runs to see if the car would idle in park, and in gear ( had no brakes yet ) . To check pump shot, and to check cruise. Coincidentally No blinkers.)
[ame]http://youtu.be/6V1mNV_VAIs[/ame]
 
The dash lights will never be bright enough to see in the day time, even on a cloudy day. T'ain't like these new-fangled LED back-lit ottermobiles....

Speedo is still messed up internally, probably the little spring or the needle pivots; either has to come apart or be replaced. I had one do that and just replaced it. At least you know the speed cable and core are good; you ought to lube the cable core someday soon; moly cam lube is my favorite, but white lithium grease will do.

For the blinkers, do the easy thing and get a new blinker can (blinker relay) first; it shoudl be 2 prong. That would kill both front and rear blinkers. Let me ask an odd but related question: do the back up lights work (aassming you have hooked up the 3 prong connector on the side of the auto trannie or the 2 prong connector on the side if a manual trannie)? Also, does the heater blower work? I ask since the power for the blinkers, the backup lights, radio, and the heater blower all feed from the same fuse in that year.

Do you have a voltmeter or can you borrow one? That will really help.
 
nm9stheham said:
The dash lights will never be bright enough to see in the day time, even on a cloudy day. T'ain't like these new-fangled LED back-lit ottermobiles....

Speedo is still messed up internally, probably the little spring or the needle pivots; either has to come apart or be replaced. I had one do that and just replaced it. At least you know the speed cable and core are good; you ought to lube the cable core someday soon; moly cam lube is my favorite, but white lithium grease will do.

For the blinkers, do the easy thing and get a new blinker can (blinker relay) first; it shoudl be 2 prong. That would kill both front and rear blinkers. Let me ask an odd but related question: do the back up lights work (aassming you have hooked up the 3 prong connector on the side of the auto trannie or the 2 prong connector on the side if a manual trannie)? Also, does the heater blower work? I ask since the power for the blinkers, the backup lights, radio, and the heater blower all feed from the same fuse in that year.
Do you have a voltmeter or can you borrow one? That will really help.
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No, the back up lights don't work. I for whatever reason, wanted to get rid of the seat belt interlock ( the new hemi really cleans up the engine area of wires, If you can get down to only what you need ) After messing with the interlock, and with winter quickly approaching, the need to get this engine running became priority. I decided the neutral safety switch ( back up light ) circuit need a bit of studying, and to be rewired correctly in the future. But first I had to have a running mule. Grounding the starter relay, I managed to get the engine running, and began tuning. As we all know, once the engine is running, it's just too hard to fight the temptation to drive, and so these issues were discovered. so this is where I am now.
Please tell me the neutral safety circuit can cause this trouble, because that whole fiasco all slipped mind. I guess that part needs a rewire similar to the Dusters before the interlock became mandatory.
Oh, by the way. ( and I'm not trying to say that anybody is wrong,,, please, The dash in my 1969 Barracuda lights up pretty good day, or night. I must've got lucky on that.
Please share additional info, thanks a lot.
 
Got it. I was wondering if a fuse can be bad, but not look bad. I know once I found a fuse that the metal end just slid of the glass. I'll have to hunt down a pack, and replace it. That would kick ***. thanks.
 
It's easy to try the fuse, but no gurantee. Radio Shack or the chain auto stores. Buss Fuses or Littlefuse brands are the best.
 
nm9stheham said:
It's easy to try the fuse, but no gurantee. Radio Shack or the chain auto stores. Buss Fuses or Littlefuse brands are the best.
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I'm holding onto hope that it is a fuse. Yesterday it was 20 outside with gusts up to 40, that fuse box ain't going anywhere.
I first thought I screwed something up with the grounds when I did the H$ headlights off relays. But having all 4 blinkers not working is hopeful.
 
nm9stheham said:
The dash lights will never be bright enough to see in the day time, even on a cloudy day. T'ain't like these new-fangled LED back-lit ottermobiles....

Speedo is still messed up internally, probably the little spring or the needle pivots; either has to come apart or be replaced. I had one do that and just replaced it. At least you know the speed cable and core are good; you ought to lube the cable core someday soon; moly cam lube is my favorite, but white lithium grease will do.

For the blinkers, do the easy thing and get a new blinker can (blinker relay) first; it shoudl be 2 prong. That would kill both front and rear blinkers. Let me ask an odd but related question: do the back up lights work (aassming you have hooked up the 3 prong connector on the side of the auto trannie or the 2 prong connector on the side if a manual trannie)? Also, does the heater blower work? I ask since the power for the blinkers, the backup lights, radio, and the heater blower all feed from the same fuse in that year.

Do you have a voltmeter or can you borrow one? That will really help.
Click to expand...
On a 1969 Plymouth barracuda the blinker relay hangs next to the steering column, on this car it's hidden someplace else. I just need to find it. I have a box of relays here somewhere. Oh, and I know a neighbor who's pretty good with a voltmeter, he's an older guy so I usually don't feel okay about bothering him, but I'll show him this thread, and try to recruit him. thanks
 
Remember the old auto manual troubleshooting sections. You'd have this page that would have a column from top to bottom, that described the symptoms. Than across the top you would have a list of problem from left to right. You could cross reference several symptoms, and if you had a bunch of X's under one problem, you could really narrow things down a bit. They were great for finding a place to start. nm9stheham 's replies are like those old books.
nm9stheham<<< Also, does the heater blower work? I ask since the power for the blinkers, the backup lights, radio, and the heater blower all feed from the same fuse in that year. >>>> The guy is sharp, he's like those book. I never stated that the neutral safety circuit was functioning, and it's not so much that he said, check the fuse- but how he ran down all the functions of that fuse, and the conclusion was that quick and clear. Thanks.
 
The speedometer must have self heeling properties. I just drove it, two 6 mile round trips to fill the tank a few times, also to aviod idling too much,and now it's zeroed, and functioning correctly. Maybe if I continue to do nothing, the car will install one of those hellcat engines all by itself.
 
Okay there was a blow fuse. So now they are showing that they are not fuctioning properly. Which begs the question of why ?

The passenger side rear works normally,

The drivers side rear barely lights up, and seems fast. ( but it's hard to tell in the daylight because it's hardly noticable.

The front passenger side, lights up solid ( no blinking )

The drivers side doesn't work at all ( that's the socket that's missing a tang for twisting the bulb into the housing. )

So I guess I'll go over how the ground wires are. Than wait for my neighbor with his voltmeter. I hope to hell the wiring in the front isn't messed up, since I rewired the car for the better headlights, and taped everything up neatly. ( which work great ) but the wiring for the directionals is taped to that hardness. Which sucks.
 
I don't even know that this is an actual instrument cluster for a Plymouth Duster, but if it is, and I intend to replace the ammeter, and temp gauge with a aftermarket set of Sun gauges. Is the wiring soldered to the circuitboard ?, and does the blue shell get chopped into to fit the gauge ? Is this hard to do ? What about the blank spot next to the headlight switch ?
 

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Good news, and bad on the directionals. I think it's a short in the front wiring, and here's why. 5 minutes ago I went out, and started the car. It's cold outside, so the electric choke is in it's element in weather like this. Standding outside the car, I reached my leg in, pumped the gas pedal, and turned the key. It immediately fired right up. As a took my leg out, my knee hit the directional stalk, and the engine lost RPM's, and tried to die. Than I flipped the directional back to center, and the RPM'scame back , and the engine went back to normal. So I'm thinking there must've been a big draw on the alternator. A big draw ! It's 138 amp alternator. Hopefully that's an indication of a short, and as soon as I hear a second opinion I'll start digging for it.
 
Weeeeell, the fast, faint rear turn signal is probably caused by the missing tang on the matching front turn signal. The standard blinker relay depends on a certain amount of current draw to flash at the right rate; if one blub, front or rear, blows out, then the curret wil be too low and it will blink at a real fast rate or not at all. That was actually a trouble indicator for the operator (as well as a cheap blinker relay design). (Just as an FYI, heavy duty or trailer towing blinker relays are designed to not be dependent on the current draw through them so you will have the same blinking rate with a trailer connected or not...)

You might be on track about the short.... it may not be a dead short but it is very likley something dropping the voltage going to the ignition. It also may be a bad ingition switch; that controls the juice to the igntion system (obviously!). They are known to get bad and you may have jarred it out of and into a good connection. Easy to find and to replace for anyone with decent mechanical skills. You really outght to dig into the column wiring based on what you just reported.

The positive comment on the troubleshooting aids are appreciated; that is the whole point: give some corrobrating info to narrow things down, or procedural steps of eliminating this then that. Sometimes it is hard to do on an internet forum however....so please don't be too hard on others. This is an all volunteer effort and those with the knowledge can share it as they please. Courtesy from all parties always helps smooth things along!
 
nm9stheham : Let's address the last thing first. I apologize to anybody who thought I was trying to treat them harshly. Unfortunately when you write, you can't convey emotion. So one thing may seem like another. Here at my house, it's one wise crack after another. You find the crack, and you use the opening, ( ah sh*t, I just did it again. Sorry.
Next, if it's the ignition switch that you think is an issue, I sort of remember years ago messing with changing one. Something like, remove the blinker cam, put the key in, maybe twist while sliding a long narrow screw driver down through a hole in the column, and the switch pops out. I could use a refresher on the procedure. Although it is a new column, and switch from Norm's speed shop.
My wife has M.S., so I'm constantly juggling different things. I was able to replace the bulb in the left front side marker ( it lit, but didn't seem as bright as the others, although that was on the sunny side of the car. ) and I pulled the left blinker bulb out, and re-installed it. ( it lit up equally in comparison to the right side parking light/directional) I got as far as knowing all the lights are lit. I also noticed the turn signal indicator on the dash was lit, on the passenger side. Than I get pulled away, and the screw for the stalk on the column is lose, so the stalk is a bit wobbly. I was thinking of putting a small drop of locktite on the screw. So I'll have to tinker more tomorrow if I can.
 
Look out for corroded contacts.
And as for the heater question, there are variables. The heater may stop working due to these possible reasons:
Bad fan motor
Bad fan speed switch
Bad resistors
You can check the blower motor by momentarily linking a hot 12 volt line to see if the motor kicks on. (again check the wiring diagram to make sure you don't fry stuff).

Here is a Wiring diagram for 75 Valiant And a 73 Valiant in color: (The wiring color code should be similar)

75ValiantA.jpg


75ValiantB.jpg


This is the color coded one: (Large size picture) http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/6493035-WiringDiagramFullValiantDuster.jpg
 
Tantibus-74 said:
Look out for corroded contacts.
And as for the heater question, there are variables. The heater may stop working due to these possible reasons:
Bad fan motor
Bad fan speed switch
Bad resistors
You can check the blower motor by momentarily linking a hot 12 volt line to see if the motor kicks on. (again check the wiring diagram to make sure you don't fry stuff).

Here is a Wiring diagram for 75 Valiant And a 73 Valiant in color: (The wiring color code should be similar)

75ValiantA.jpg


75ValiantB.jpg


This is the color coded one: (Large size picture) http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/6493035-WiringDiagramFullValiantDuster.jpg
Click to expand...

When I started this project. I had asked a electrical question, and in return somebody replied, " Why are you asking this question, go out, and buy a service manual." The reason I didn't is because 90% of the engine side of the firewall wiring, gets ripped out, and thrown in the scrap heap. The wiring for the directional, on the engine side of the firewall is easy, but mistakes can still be made. I have all that wiring so nicely wrapped, I cring at the though of re-doing it.
I have a wiring diagram for a 1974 Dodge dart from Mymopar dot com, but some of the stuff my car came with, just wasn't on that diagram. Plus I suppose the old, " If you can't see it, ignore it." doesn't work with cars. The magical kingdom under the dash may need fixing. I look forward to answering many of my curious question, as I sit down on the thrown for the ole' morning constitution. Thank you so much.
 
garyfish340 said:
nm9stheham : Let's address the last thing first. I apologize to anybody who thought I was trying to treat them harshly. Unfortunately when you write, you can't convey emotion. So one thing may seem like another. Here at my house, it's one wise crack after another. You find the crack, and you use the opening, ( ah sh*t, I just did it again. Sorry.
Next, if it's the ignition switch that you think is an issue, I sort of remember years ago messing with changing one. Something like, remove the blinker cam, put the key in, maybe twist while sliding a long narrow screw driver down through a hole in the column, and the switch pops out. I could use a refresher on the procedure. Although it is a new column, and switch from Norm's speed shop.
My wife has M.S., so I'm constantly juggling different things. I was able to replace the bulb in the left front side marker ( it lit, but didn't seem as bright as the others, although that was on the sunny side of the car. ) and I pulled the left blinker bulb out, and re-installed it. ( it lit up equally in comparison to the right side parking light/directional) I got as far as knowing all the lights are lit. I also noticed the turn signal indicator on the dash was lit, on the passenger side. Than I get pulled away, and the screw for the stalk on the column is lose, so the stalk is a bit wobbly. I was thinking of putting a small drop of locktite on the screw. So I'll have to tinker more tomorrow if I can.
Click to expand...

Sorry, disregard this.
 
Just want you all to know that your ideas are appreciated. When I get a chance I have tried a lot of the above suggestions, and the issues have narrowed. The heater/defrost blower is now on line, it still seems weak though. I wish there was a way to overclock it, without burning it up. Good stuff.
 
Well if the ignition switch is new, then that is probably not it. That issue would be due to a worn internal contact, which sounds unlikely in your car's case.

As for the heater blower being weak, there is one more very likely spot and it needs checking out. The power for the blower comes from its fuse a first runs through some electrical contacts built into the heat selection control where you select cool/heat/defrost (which is not separately shown on the mymopar diagrams). This is used to cut off power to the blower when the control is OFF. The contacts are integrated with the vacuum selector, and the contacts in this switch get corroded and hot and will melt the pastic body of that control. So you need to get the heat control out and look at this. This particular problem is very common. There are 2 wiring connections to the back of this switch and you can temporarily jumper them together and see if the blower speeds up.
 
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