Interesting VIN number on 68 Barracuda

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to those who have been following this thread and are interested in the VIN # issue on the red fastback barracuda that gateway classics of indianapolis has advertised. gateway's ad mentioned the guy who "restored" this car. i sent that guy an email. he actually responded with his phone number and asked me to give him a call. i plan on doing that soon. i will share that conversation with my fellow FABO members once it takes place.

i am looking forward to hearing how the noted fastback car ended up with a dash and VIN # out of a "coup." i'll let you guys know....
 
Can we start a poll on his response? I hope this issue works out . Lawrence
 
jimharvard said:
to those who have been following this thread and are interested in the VIN # issue on the red fastback barracuda that gateway classics of indianapolis has advertised. gateway's ad mentioned the guy who "restored" this car. i sent that guy an email. he actually responded with his phone number and asked me to give him a call. i plan on doing that soon. i will share that conversation with my fellow FABO members once it takes place.

i am looking forward to hearing how the noted fastback car ended up with a dash and VIN # out of a "coup." i'll let you guys know....

I will take this opportunity to publicly Thank You Sir !!!
'Legalese verbiage' (in My humble experience) is soooo multi layered as to make
ones head spin !!!
? Did I miss the context of Your O/P? I.e, You are not billing anyone, or any 'entity' for Your
posting time & research for the FABO FAMILY, just trying to help.
Again, Humble Thx Sir, & Thx added.
 
Help me out here.
If the whole dash has been swapped where is the "alteration" of the VIN?
The VIN plate is intact, undisturbed and as Chrysler made it.
I'm thinking that the car has been altered, not the VIN.
Of, course the other VINs won't match, but "we" just call that a non-numbers matching car, I think.
Leave it to me to be backwards.
For example, did these cars come with 360 engines?
And if someone has put a coup VIN on a fast back, does that make the car worth less?
(Sorry, notch owners. Don't mean anything by that. I lost an article about how notch backs were so beautiful.)
Were is the "defraud"? Are they asking too much money for it?
In other words, putting a Hemi VIN on a non-hemi car to get more money would might be 180 degrees different from this case.
Now, that could be fraud if there was intent to defraud. Right?


Here's my best lawyer joke.
Lawyers get paid to disagree.


Did someone say "witch"?
 
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hi mech1nxh and adriver....

thanks mech1nch for the compliments!! yes... it's true ... i am doing all my "FABO legal work" for free... :0) !!

adriver.. let me try and address your comments/questions.

1. when a vehicle is "created" by the original manufacturer it is assigned a specific "Vehicle Identification Number" unique to that car. that unique number is then attached to the car in some form and in some location unique to the manufacturer.

in the early days of the auto industry, VIN numbers were primarily relied upon for internal corporate tracking business purposes and for the various states to issue license plates and titles to a particular person for a particular vehicle for tax and record-keeping goals.

for at least the last 20 years, VIN numbers have been much more complex revealing and including a great deal of data including production numbers, drive train components, date and locations of manufacture and on really new cars, computer information. i'll decode the VIN on one of my barracudas:

B H 29 P 8 B 431915

B: a "Barracuda"
H: high price class
29: 2 door fastback (27 is for a convertible - 23 is for a 2 door coupe)
P: 340 engine
8: 1968 model year
B: produced at the Hamtramck, Michigan Chrysler plant
431915: the sequence number for production of that individual car

thus you can see that even way back in 1968, a "VIN" number placed on a particular 1968 barracuda revealed a great deal of information about the car the number was put on.

as to the law, courts and all state Motor Vehicle Departments in charge of titling and licensing every "road driven" vehicle to be used on any public road in their state - all have a great interest in making sure that when a police offer stops a particular car, that car can be identified as belonging to a particular owner. that identification is accomplished by looking at the title for the vehicle on file with the state bearing the same VIN number that is suppose to be on the car the police officer stopped. in addition, if a vehicle is stolen, it is the VIN number of the stolen car that identifies the exact stolen car and which is admitted into evidence at the criminal trial.

as to all 67, 68 and 69 plymouth barracudas, the VIN number for any of those cars can be changed by just swapping one dash assembly for another. here's an example as to why this is a problem - and is ILLEGAL to do. suppose you run an illegal "chop shop" body shop where you buy stolen cars cheaply, disassemble them and use the parts for other cars. you go to a private owner and buy a worthless 68 barracuda 2 door coup with a good title for $500. you take that car to your chop shop and then have someone steal a very nicely restored 68 barracuda worth $30k. all you have to do is put your $500 dash in your beautiful stolen barracuda and all of a sudden - you have a $30k barracuda in your name with a good title! the United States Department of Justice figured out this scheme decades ago and that's why the U.S. Congress made changing or altering vehicle VIN numbers a "Federal Offense."

now, before anyone gets the wrong message here, not EVERYONE who changes a dash in a 67,68 or 69 barracuda has criminal intentions. there could be a very reasonable and rationale reason for considering doing this. for example, suppose the same owner owns two barracudas - one with a good title and the other one with no title. the owner knows the history of both cars and knows that neither car was ever stolen. what's the harm with this owner just "swapping" the dash assemblies in these cars so he can build one good car? well the answer is probably - there is no harm. however, that is not how the federal and all state governments want this owner to solve this problem. in most states, all he has to do is to apply for a "reconstructed title" for the vehicle he wants to build and the state will issue him a valid and legal VIN and title. AND... there are also the states that do not issue titles at all for cars older beyond a certain year. HOWEVER, even in these states, THE FEDERAL LAW still applies so you could still be prosecuted for "altering or changing a vehicle VIN number."

the point that you've raised about changing a dash isn't really "altering" the VIN number is not the way the police view this. "altering" under the law means doing any act that puts a different VIN number on a vehicle that the vehicle did not originally come with.

as to the phrase "numbers matching" - i'm afraid you've misunderstood what that means. in the collector car world, the term "numbers matching" means that the vehicle has the original engine and transmission in it that it came with from the factory. all american produced vehicles for decades have had numbers stamped on the engine and transmission which also are found on some identification plate on the body of the vehicle. these numbers can be the VIN number or in the case of mopars, "production sequence" numbers. some vehicle also include other parts on the car that are stamped with numbers that are tracked and considered original to the car.

there are actually three terms used now for collector car numbers: "numbers matching" meaning that the engine and transmission is the original ones the car was built with and the dates on the engine/trans are found on the car; "date correct" numbers which means that the engine and/or trans are NOT original to the car but were produced at the factory within a "range of dates" that the car was produced. thus when the 1968 model year barracudas were being first produced, coming off an assembly line beginning after August 1, 1968 and continuing to be produced until May 31, 1969, ANY engine or transmission for a barracuda bearing a production date between August 1, 1968 and May 31, 1969 would be considered "date correct" for a 1968 barracuda. the final term you may hear is "non numbers matching" meaning that the engine/trans (other parts) are just from the same manufacturer and have no other relationship to the particular car they are in.

as to putting a coupe dash and VIN number in a fastback, that car technically and legally CANNOT BE SOLD nor could you get a title. when you apply for a title for this car you have to swear that the information you are providing to the state "is correct." if you know the VIN # is for another car but you still "sent that title application in to the state", you would be guilty of "false swearing to authorities" which is a felony in most states. such a car would be "worthless" with the wrong dash. your only option legally would be to apply for a "reconstructed VIN and title" for this car asking the state to issue a new VIN # for that car - or tear it apart and use the parts on a "legally titled" car.

the law considers the crime of "fraud" to be any act that is intended to illegally deprive another person of anything of value; or causing a person to do something or fail to do something; through the use of "deception." thus, KNOWINGLY selling a 68 fastback barracuda with a 68 "coupe" VIN number would be "fraud."

committing fraud is NOT dependent upon the "value" of the benefit received. illegal fraud occurs whenever you do anything that deprives a person of money that they already have; or causes them TO DO something that results in a loss to them; or causes them to NOT do something that had they done their intended act, would have brought them a benefit - simply by ACTUALLY telling them a lie or by FAILING to tell them the entire truth.
 
Thanks for answering my questions.
With your input , people can understand why lawyers aren't cheap.
I see the word "fraud" thrown around a lot in these threads and I thought that the law should include intent.

When I said this car was non-numbers matching I was talking not only about the engine and transmission (our normal MOPAR terminology) but the hidden partial numbers stamped into the body.
MMC Detroit
One has to ask if the hidden numbers are even still there.
Some clerk at the DMV could squawk at the coupe/fastback coding.
I understand that would be a crap shoot and thank you for alerting people.
Cars become antique objects d'art and I think most people understand that at some point the car probably is not "as left the factory".
"Save the savable" might be a good motto.

Here is the very problem you have pointed out with laws which I feel MUST have been written by beaurocrats for the insurance companies and Hondas, not Model T car clubs.
In my state you will not get a title to a old car once it is lost. Just a registration.
But I have lived in state that issues titles to cars that don't have them.
Been there. Done that. Got the T shirt and titles.
I hear my state is considering legislation to change that and get the revenue of titling old cars.
That's a win, win in my book. The state gets revenue and the owner gets psychological security.
But what is the federal law?
If the laws say "VIN number" doesn't someone need to amend those laws?
The law has just said: "Vehicle Identification Number Number" then.
Fraud aside, if the law just says "alter the VIN" that still seems different from altering the car by putting a different dash in it to me.
Like tuna fish.
(Tuna is a fish. No need to call it one)
Call me Ismael.

hi mech1nxh and adriver....

thanks mech1nch for the compliments!! yes... it's true ... i am doing all my "FABO legal work" for free... :0) !!

adriver.. let me try and address your comments/questions.

1. when a vehicle is "created" by the original manufacturer it is assigned a specific "Vehicle Identification Number" unique to that car. that unique number is then attached to the car in some form and in some location unique to the manufacturer.

in the early days of the auto industry, VIN numbers were primarily relied upon for internal corporate tracking business purposes and for the various states to issue license plates and titles to a particular person for a particular vehicle for tax and record-keeping goals.

for at least the last 20 years, VIN numbers have been much more complex revealing and including a great deal of data including production numbers, drive train components, date and locations of manufacture and on really new cars, computer information. i'll decode the VIN on one of my barracudas:

B H 29 P 8 B 431915

B: a "Barracuda"
H: high price class
29: 2 door fastback (27 is for a convertible - 23 is for a 2 door coupe)
P: 340 engine
8: 1968 model year
B: produced at the Hamtramck, Michigan Chrysler plant
431915: the sequence number for production of that individual car

thus you can see that even way back in 1968, a "VIN" number placed on a particular 1968 barracuda revealed a great deal of information about the car the number was put on.

as to the law, courts and all state Motor Vehicle Departments in charge of titling and licensing every "road driven" vehicle to be used on any public road in their state - all have a great interest in making sure that when a police offer stops a particular car, that car can be identified as belonging to a particular owner. that identification is accomplished by looking at the title for the vehicle on file with the state bearing the same VIN number that is suppose to be on the car the police officer stopped. in addition, if a vehicle is stolen, it is the VIN number of the stolen car that identifies the exact stolen car and which is admitted into evidence at the criminal trial.

as to all 67, 68 and 69 plymouth barracudas, the VIN number for any of those cars can be changed by just swapping one dash assembly for another. here's an example as to why this is a problem - and is ILLEGAL to do. suppose you run an illegal "chop shop" body shop where you buy stolen cars cheaply, disassemble them and use the parts for other cars. you go to a private owner and buy a worthless 68 barracuda 2 door coup with a good title for $500. you take that car to your chop shop and then have someone steal a very nicely restored 68 barracuda worth $30k. all you have to do is put your $500 dash in your beautiful stolen barracuda and all of a sudden - you have a $30k barracuda in your name with a good title! the United States Department of Justice figured out this scheme decades ago and that's why the U.S. Congress made changing or altering vehicle VIN numbers a "Federal Offense."

now, before anyone gets the wrong message here, not EVERYONE who changes a dash in a 67,68 or 69 barracuda has criminal intentions. there could be a very reasonable and rationale reason for considering doing this. for example, suppose the same owner owns two barracudas - one with a good title and the other one with no title. the owner knows the history of both cars and knows that neither car was ever stolen. what's the harm with this owner just "swapping" the dash assemblies in these cars so he can build one good car? well the answer is probably - there is no harm. however, that is not how the federal and all state governments want this owner to solve this problem. in most states, all he has to do is to apply for a "reconstructed title" for the vehicle he wants to build and the state will issue him a valid and legal VIN and title. AND... there are also the states that do not issue titles at all for cars older beyond a certain year. HOWEVER, even in these states, THE FEDERAL LAW still applies so you could still be prosecuted for "altering or changing a vehicle VIN number."

the point that you've raised about changing a dash isn't really "altering" the VIN number is not the way the police view this. "altering" under the law means doing any act that puts a different VIN number on a vehicle that the vehicle did not originally come with.

as to the phrase "numbers matching" - i'm afraid you've misunderstood what that means. in the collector car world, the term "numbers matching" means that the vehicle has the original engine and transmission in it that it came with from the factory. all american produced vehicles for decades have had numbers stamped on the engine and transmission which also are found on some identification plate on the body of the vehicle. these numbers can be the VIN number or in the case of mopars, "production sequence" numbers. some vehicle also include other parts on the car that are stamped with numbers that are tracked and considered original to the car.

there are actually three terms used now for collector car numbers: "numbers matching" meaning that the engine and transmission is the original ones the car was built with and the dates on the engine/trans are found on the car; "date correct" numbers which means that the engine and/or trans are NOT original to the car but were produced at the factory within a "range of dates" that the car was produced. thus when the 1968 model year barracudas were being first produced, coming off an assembly line beginning after August 1, 1968 and continuing to be produced until May 31, 1969, ANY engine or transmission for a barracuda bearing a production date between August 1, 1968 and May 31, 1969 would be considered "date correct" for a 1968 barracuda. the final term you may hear is "non numbers matching" meaning that the engine/trans (other parts) are just from the same manufacturer and have no other relationship to the particular car they are in.

as to putting a coupe dash and VIN number in a fastback, that car technically and legally CANNOT BE SOLD nor could you get a title. when you apply for a title for this car you have to swear that the information you are providing to the state "is correct." if you know the VIN # is for another car but you still "sent that title application in to the state", you would be guilty of "false swearing to authorities" which is a felony in most states. such a car would be "worthless" with the wrong dash. your only option legally would be to apply for a "reconstructed VIN and title" for this car asking the state to issue a new VIN # for that car - or tear it apart and use the parts on a "legally titled" car.

the law considers the crime of "fraud" to be any act that is intended to illegally deprive another person of anything of value; or causing a person to do something or fail to do something; through the use of "deception." thus, KNOWINGLY selling a 68 fastback barracuda with a 68 "coupe" VIN number would be "fraud."

committing fraud is NOT dependent upon the "value" of the benefit received. illegal fraud occurs whenever you do anything that deprives a person of money that they already have; or causes them TO DO something that results in a loss to them; or causes them to NOT do something that had they done their intended act, would have brought them a benefit - simply by ACTUALLY telling them a lie or by FAILING to tell them the entire truth.
 
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I understand all of this, that is illegal to swag vin. BUT I be came friends with a guy in Mass that went trough all this. Long story short. He bought a 72 duster that looked like a 70(he thought) after getting it home and really looking at it noticing it was a 70 340 car. The motor match the body numbers. He did some digging and found the car was race for a while and then put back on the street with 72 dash and vin. He had a mess to deal with. He went to motor vehicle neither car stolen, he had to bring the car to inspection and they looked it over and let him register it as the 72 because had bin registered already. I could not believe they let him do this.
 
to those who have been following this thread and are interested in the VIN # issue on the red fastback barracuda that gateway classics of indianapolis has advertised. gateway's ad mentioned the guy who "restored" this car. i sent that guy an email. he actually responded with his phone number and asked me to give him a call. i plan on doing that soon. i will share that conversation with my fellow FABO members once it takes place.

i am looking forward to hearing how the noted fastback car ended up with a dash and VIN # out of a "coup." i'll let you guys know....

Did you ever figure out the mystery. Did the dude ever talk to you?
 
Jim. I appreciate your thread on this 68 Barracuda. Thanks for educating us on this topic.
 
At what point is the car still the same car as relation to the VIN? Say it wasn't just the dash that was swapped but the front end was drilled and the whole subframe swapped. Along with the doors, fenders, motor, transmission, interior, axle, K frame, 1/4 panels, etc. What VIN belongs with the restored car, the 90% that was swapped or the 10% that remained. Seems to me, if they are serious about prosecuting somebody that "modified" a VIN by simply unbolting a bolted on piece, they are going to have a tough sell to a jury especially if just fixing up an old car was the motive. The VINs need to be attached or stamped on a permanent part of the car. Swapping a whole dash assembly that obviously could never have been in the car with no effort to conceal it shows to me there was nothing nefarious here. It's the cars with the perfect little cutout sequence numbers and the neatly drilled out VIN tags that raise huge red flags. Somebody is putting great efforts into concealing something. It is either stolen or being represented as a rare high dollar piece.
 
My 67 notch has the vin pop riveted in the door jamb. I dont know why they started to put them on the dash in 68. I used to own a 1960 el camino many years ago. The stainless steel vin plate on those was spot welded in the door jamb. If you tried to remove it you would destroy it to get it off. I remember a friend changing the dash pad in his 74 cuda and the vin being riveted to the pad itself. It was almost like the carmakers were making it easier to misrepresent a car by then. As far as the 90%-10% question posed by the previous post, i have to say you use the vin of the vehicle you are rebuilding even if only 10% of it is left, not the vin off the donor. If the car is that far gone that you have to use 90% of a donor car, then the one your fixing must be pretty rare and valuable because thats a lot of work to go through.

I have seen pix on this site in the restoration section of a guy restoring i think it was a 67 or 68 383 4 speed formula S vert. This thing was truk lagoon rusty. He stashed it away in the corner of his shop until enough repop steel became available, what was left of the original car body by the time he replaced all the rotten steel was essentially the cowl and windshield frame, rocker panels, the radiator support, along with the structure in the back that houses the convertible top, and the trunk weatherstrip rails. A lot of work yes, but for an irreplaceable vehicle. I think he installed rust free used framerails off a donor car. In this case which vin would you use? Dont know about y'all , but i'm gonna go with the vin off the original 383 4 speed vert.
 
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Additionally the fender tag on my 67, and my 69 are both long gone. Were gone before i ever bought either car. Neither one is terribly valuable. I will fill in the holes where the tags went and repaint. The 69 was a stripper 318 coupe with only automatic floor shift as an option, my 67 was a slant sux bench seat 3 on the tree coupe. Even though i am putting a V8/4 speed combo in the 67, i dont ever intend to misrepresent it with formula S badges etc, even though these are being redone as i want them to be. I have heard of people stamping out new fender tags too. Another slippery slope. Now if your car is valuable optionwise and you can prove it was built that way. Maybe getting a notorized document from Galen Govier to prove what you got, i see no reason to not stamp out a fender tag to replace a missing or severely corroded original, but stamping one out adding in options on the tag the car didnt originally come with is pretty dishonest as well.

The problem here is now these cars are not used cars anymore. People buy them as investments. Yes i know A bodies are currently poor investments as you can sink $20K easy into a $12K car, however i never thought 68-70 chargers would be selling for $50K and up either. This being said when dropping that much cash on a vehicle that old thats probably been apart for a restoration at some point in its life, smart people do their homework, and if it smells fishy no pun intended like a BH23 vin on a BH29 barracuda, i'd walk away too.
 
vin plate repops can get done , by this guy here , but you need to jump thru a few hoops first or he wrote deal with you , he is just one way . i found that refressing in the car biz . data plates show quality www.datalogs.com a,g.backeast , po box 581, plainville, ct 06062 , 860-877-4440 , he even has the special rivets for 68 up dash mounts . and i might add that guys selling false rare cars are whats wrong with vintage collecting today , just for a buck . i've read of some ebay buys and work that was tobe done one way and just masked over . all those guys just make my job harder , i've been doing body work for a long time now , some 46 years . paint n before i could legally drive them . and not only do i shoot tons of pics of the process , but get the owners approval as well . must can't understand , so i mosty school them . wish i could get paid for those hours . so hope that all your buys go right , and sell leave for good times for all .
 
i've been busy trying to finish a house i purchased for resale so i haven't had a chance to call the guy who built the original car which is the subject of this thread. i'm going to try and call him tomorrow (sat jun 4th) and see if i can get any further information from him as to why a 68 fastback barracuda ended up with the VIN # for a 68 coupe. i will post something here on FABO if i get to talk to this guy...
 
vin plate repops can get done , by this guy here , but you need to jump thru a few hoops first or he wrote deal with you , he is just one way . i found that refressing in the car biz . data plates show quality www.datalogs.com a,g.backeast , po box 581, plainville, ct 06062 , 860-877-4440 , he even has the special rivets for 68 up dash mounts . and i might add that guys selling false rare cars are whats wrong with vintage collecting today , just for a buck . i've read of some ebay buys and work that was tobe done one way and just masked over . all those guys just make my job harder , i've been doing body work for a long time now , some 46 years . paint n before i could legally drive them . and not only do i shoot tons of pics of the process , but get the owners approval as well . must can't understand , so i mosty school them . wish i could get paid for those hours . so hope that all your buys go right , and sell leave for good times for all .
The place you added a link to doesnt look like they sell what you were talking about. I am interested in a set of vin rivets for my 69 notch.
 
davescuda , sent me an email regarding the guy i spoke of . he has moved and not sure if he's still in the repopping biz anymore , so contact him for any requests . at the time the rivets where around fifty a pair . and they looked right . size , shape n color . hope we can still get them at least . :)
 
Yep year one used to sell em for $10 a pair years ago. I shoulda bought em way back then.
 
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