65goldcuda
@65_Cuda w/408/727/Dana 60
Ok Guys...I am opening myself up to a whole bunch of "I told you so's." or "duhh" or "Classic Rookie Mistake" comments, but I am posting this because 1. I am happy/proud of how the car turned out..2. Want to make sure people avoid some of the mistakes I made..3. Hopefully I can help someone who is considering this project in the future by telling them what did and did not work for me (saving them time and money). Disclaimer: I AM NOT A MECHANIC NOR A MOPAR EXPERT..IN FACT I AM A ROOKIE..but I now have a wealth of education from the MOPAR school of hard knocks! I know many of you are experts and have forgotten more than I will ever know about these cars. So this post is more for those who are considering this project. ALSO..THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG WINDED POST SO THAT ANYONE WHO TAKES THE TIME TO READ IT SEES ALL THE GOOD…THE BAD..AND THE UGLY... ...ONE MORE THING..HOW MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE DID THIS UPGRADE MAKE?? READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO FIND OUT!
1. Ok...first lesson learned.. KNOW WHO YOUR DEALING WITH! Never trust someone who thinks they know what they are doing because they have worked on a lot of Chevy’s and Fords....but really doesn't have a lot of experience with A-Body MOPAR's (DUHH!) :banghead: I trusted a guy who claimed to be an expert mechanic who said “I can build you a new 360 engine, rebuild your trans with a shift kit…and beef up your rear end and drive line for about $11,000 in less than two months.. (I so badly wanted to believe him that I fell for it…what a waste of time and money). After almost 6 months of him trying and failing, I took away the car from him. More on that later..
2. PEOPLE ARE FULL OF ADVICE! Somewhere along the line, someone took out my 273 and put in a 318 (see picture with the black air cleaner and valve covers and hemi orange block) . The car made less than 190HP to the rear wheels and was not running well..so I wanted to put some money into the 318 (bigger cam, headers, exhaust etc). Someone told me "No that’s a waste of money....don't do that..have someone build you a 340 or 360" (That was a good idea in theory..)! The problem is… that they did not tell me how many dominoes or $100 bills I was about to knock over...you can’t take a 65 CUDA that was designed for 250HP max and drop a 425HP engine in it and not break the trans, drive line or rear end. Trust me..I have the pictures to prove why! (old 318)
3. NEW ENGINE!!! WUDDA CUDDA SHUDDA! So what I did was I went to a couple of engine builders..they said they would make me a 340 or 360 for about $4500-$5000 that would make me 360-380HP..I WANTED 400 or MORE! (again, classic mistake) . In retrospect having a crate motor delivered to my door in three weeks would have been the way to go… SO MY ADVICE…have a trusted race engine/machine shop build you a good solid engine, or consider buying one from Indy Cylinder Head or MRI Performance or someone (I am not endorsing either). Lesson learned; I would/should have paid someone who really knew what they were doing..and I should have paid extra to have the water pump, alternator, and power steering brackets everything all installed with a serpentine system, all ready to drop in and run. It took me forever to find brackets and pulleys , water pumps, installed. In the end what I did was bought a new MOPAR MAGNUM 360 short block, bought aftermarket MOPAR/EDLEBROCK LA HEADS (LA HEADS DO NOT FIT THE MAGNUM BLOCK)..WHICH MY FIRST MECHANIC DID NOT KNOW! We bent a least 3 sets of valves and pushrods before we figured that out. I had to box up the whole engine and send it to Indy Cylinder Head and they tore the engine down, rebuilt it correctly..and balanced broke in and dyno’d the motor at 423HP at 6000 RPM. The specs of the engine are as follows: New MOPAR block, new aluminum heads, COMP .541 lift cam 280 duration intake, 288 exahust duration, MSD ignition, roller rockers and lifters. (see photo of the new engine on the stand w/matching gold paint)
4. “HEADERS ARE NOT AS EASY AS A QUICK ORDER FROM JEGS or SUMMIT FOR THIS CAR!”….what a nightmare!!! Not sure this was worth It in the end..I ended up buying $600 black Hooker Headers from JEGS that DID NOT FIT THE CAR! You have to realize that even though it is the correct part number..you have to cut the fender walls, and they are like 5 or 6 piece headers. My mechanic HATED dealing with them.. and in the end..we had to have them ceramic coated because they scratched really easy and paint comes right off when they get hot. We also later had to have them cut and moved over 1” to the left to accommodate the new 727 trans..and I am also having problems with the Pitman arm hitting the headers under torque from the motor when I turn. So i need to figure out a way to modify those to get more steering clearance. Lesson learned, if you want headers and want to keep your car in tact, have that be the last thing you put on..and consider having custom headers made (will cost you almost $2000 but worth it).
5. COOLING/CHARGING ISSUES: ALSO A TOUGH PROBLEM..I went with a new aluminum radiator and twin electric fans. They work great..but not as easy to install as you might think. You have to hide a temp controller somewhere (we hid mine under the battery box ) as it is what kicks the fan off and on. We wired mine to the key switch. I started out with two small 8” fans mounted on the inside of the radiator that pull air. It was not enough to keep the engine cool at stoplights.. I needed to put a 16” 2500 CFM push fan on that I bought from summit. However, the 16" fan is an 18 amp fan, and I am not sure what the other two small ones draw, but driving at night I am overwhelming my charging system (stock 35amp alternator). So I had to buy a 60 amp alternator, and put the 16" fan on a toggle switch (I only run it at stoplights or in stop and go traffic if I need it).
6. TRANSMISSIONS ARE NOT A CHEAP EASY CONVERSION EITHER BUT A MUST! : Conversion from a 904 trans to a 727 3 speed torqueflight. Don’t rely on a 50 year old 904 transmission to take 400HP..The guy supposedly rebuilt my 904 and put a shift kit and 2800RPM stall converter in it. (because my cam is a .541lift 280 intake 288exahust cam). But back to the trans…within 10 miles I developed a serious trans leak, from the front pump seal. Also…the existing rear 7.5” rear end (found out later) has a 2.92 gears in it. So I was cruising well below 2800 RPM (tough on the torque converter). So I went with a brand new Street/Strip 727 3 speed trans from Performance Automatic (available through summit) they have a lifetime gaurntee, and a 2500-2800 stall converter for about $2200. You will need to find a 727 speedo adapter/gears from someone on this forum because they are HARD to find! The speedo cable itself on the 904 is one solid continuous piece, so you will need a new cable (go to Autozone and ask for a speedo cable from a 66 Dart and I bet you they will have one in stock). The Dart cable will fit the nut on the back of your speedo but the hole for the 904 cable and the 727 cable are NOT the same. You need the larger one.
7.YOU WILL NEED A NEW SHIFTER…and you CAN HAVE A NEW SHIFTER THAT STILL LOOKS OLD SCHOOL : I went with the B&M quick silver shifter. It fits into the existing shift box/cover and looks fairly close to the original. Again, the original shifter for the 904 has two cables and 727 has one..so your kinda forced to do something different than stock. Cost was about $300.00
8. REAR END and GEAR ARE CRITICAL TO THIS PROJECT! . As I said, I converted from a 7.5” rear 2.92 rear end, to a DANA 60 3.54 rear end (custom built by Pyle Brothers in Baytown Texas) for about $3500. The first rear end got torn up within two days (pinion and ring gear had broken worn/teeth) and believe me I was not really hard on it at all. No launches, no crazy burn outs etc. So..what are the pitfalls of a new rear end. ..you have to find new 3” wide Ubolts (from a 70 or higher Cuda/Charger/etc) with new shock mounts (cost me about $200 on Ebay with shipping). You also now need a new driveline, and we needed a new shifter, and new speedometer cable. They tell me the DANA 60 typically in a ¾ or 1 ton truck, and if built for drag racing, can handle up to 1000HP, so they told me I should not ever have anymore problems with that.
9. A NEW DRIVESHAFT WILL BE NEEDED. I had someone in Houston make new a new balanced aluminum drive shaft. The old one was about 2” in diameter, the new one is about 3.5”. IF your going to use the 727 and the Dana 60, your old driveshaft will be too long anyway..so you now need a custom length. Mine was 47” 3/16” long. I have 1350 yolks/u joints, and a nice solid driveline. Cost was about $600
10. EXHAUST I went with new DR Gas X Pipe Exhaust with the 30” Boomtube mufflers. What attracted me to them was the look, sound, and performance. I have met and talked with Boyd Butler..and he has done extensive dyno testing on several different cars. He found that you can get a 10-15 decibel sound reduction from open headers, but not loose any HP with the boomtubes. They have ZERO glass inside, it is all the circular moon shapes he puts in the baffles that quiet it down. The car sounds really cool, and has a cool look that I don’t see anywhere else at Car shows…http://www.drgas.com/boomtubes
So bottom line…I wasted some money, made a lot of mistakes, lost a lot of time. The project took me almost 18 months. I could do it in six months if I had to do it all over again. I would have just gone straight for the throat. Bought a 360 or 383 that put out 400-500HP from Indy Cylnder Head at a cost of about $5000-$7000, bought a new trans, had the new rear end and driveline built. Instead I tried to get by with the old tranny, drive line and rear end. Just not gonna happen (again, to you seasoned veterans…you know better, I didn’t). Hopefully I can save someone some time, pain, and money. I now have about $30,000 in parts and labor in my drive train. It should have cost me about $20,000 or less. That being said..I love it, I am glad I did it, …but I love the car! If you want to see more pictures of the project, it is easier to just go to this youtube link: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDkwrmhScIk"]1965 Plymouth Barracuda tribute car: Pat Clark - YouTube[/ame] hope this helps some people! I love FABO! It has helped me so much! Thanks guys!
OH...ONE MORE THING..HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE DID THE UPGRADE MAKE? According to my research and the factory brochure, the stock 1/4 mile time for a 65 Cuda 273 Comando was 16.1 seconds, I have done some street runs and I am now doing 11.8 to 12.2. So A HUGE DIFFERENCE in torque and pull! The pull from 20MPH to 80 is something amazing to feel! All MOTOR! No nitrous, no superchargers, just motor!
1. Ok...first lesson learned.. KNOW WHO YOUR DEALING WITH! Never trust someone who thinks they know what they are doing because they have worked on a lot of Chevy’s and Fords....but really doesn't have a lot of experience with A-Body MOPAR's (DUHH!) :banghead: I trusted a guy who claimed to be an expert mechanic who said “I can build you a new 360 engine, rebuild your trans with a shift kit…and beef up your rear end and drive line for about $11,000 in less than two months.. (I so badly wanted to believe him that I fell for it…what a waste of time and money). After almost 6 months of him trying and failing, I took away the car from him. More on that later..
2. PEOPLE ARE FULL OF ADVICE! Somewhere along the line, someone took out my 273 and put in a 318 (see picture with the black air cleaner and valve covers and hemi orange block) . The car made less than 190HP to the rear wheels and was not running well..so I wanted to put some money into the 318 (bigger cam, headers, exhaust etc). Someone told me "No that’s a waste of money....don't do that..have someone build you a 340 or 360" (That was a good idea in theory..)! The problem is… that they did not tell me how many dominoes or $100 bills I was about to knock over...you can’t take a 65 CUDA that was designed for 250HP max and drop a 425HP engine in it and not break the trans, drive line or rear end. Trust me..I have the pictures to prove why! (old 318)
3. NEW ENGINE!!! WUDDA CUDDA SHUDDA! So what I did was I went to a couple of engine builders..they said they would make me a 340 or 360 for about $4500-$5000 that would make me 360-380HP..I WANTED 400 or MORE! (again, classic mistake) . In retrospect having a crate motor delivered to my door in three weeks would have been the way to go… SO MY ADVICE…have a trusted race engine/machine shop build you a good solid engine, or consider buying one from Indy Cylinder Head or MRI Performance or someone (I am not endorsing either). Lesson learned; I would/should have paid someone who really knew what they were doing..and I should have paid extra to have the water pump, alternator, and power steering brackets everything all installed with a serpentine system, all ready to drop in and run. It took me forever to find brackets and pulleys , water pumps, installed. In the end what I did was bought a new MOPAR MAGNUM 360 short block, bought aftermarket MOPAR/EDLEBROCK LA HEADS (LA HEADS DO NOT FIT THE MAGNUM BLOCK)..WHICH MY FIRST MECHANIC DID NOT KNOW! We bent a least 3 sets of valves and pushrods before we figured that out. I had to box up the whole engine and send it to Indy Cylinder Head and they tore the engine down, rebuilt it correctly..and balanced broke in and dyno’d the motor at 423HP at 6000 RPM. The specs of the engine are as follows: New MOPAR block, new aluminum heads, COMP .541 lift cam 280 duration intake, 288 exahust duration, MSD ignition, roller rockers and lifters. (see photo of the new engine on the stand w/matching gold paint)
4. “HEADERS ARE NOT AS EASY AS A QUICK ORDER FROM JEGS or SUMMIT FOR THIS CAR!”….what a nightmare!!! Not sure this was worth It in the end..I ended up buying $600 black Hooker Headers from JEGS that DID NOT FIT THE CAR! You have to realize that even though it is the correct part number..you have to cut the fender walls, and they are like 5 or 6 piece headers. My mechanic HATED dealing with them.. and in the end..we had to have them ceramic coated because they scratched really easy and paint comes right off when they get hot. We also later had to have them cut and moved over 1” to the left to accommodate the new 727 trans..and I am also having problems with the Pitman arm hitting the headers under torque from the motor when I turn. So i need to figure out a way to modify those to get more steering clearance. Lesson learned, if you want headers and want to keep your car in tact, have that be the last thing you put on..and consider having custom headers made (will cost you almost $2000 but worth it).
5. COOLING/CHARGING ISSUES: ALSO A TOUGH PROBLEM..I went with a new aluminum radiator and twin electric fans. They work great..but not as easy to install as you might think. You have to hide a temp controller somewhere (we hid mine under the battery box ) as it is what kicks the fan off and on. We wired mine to the key switch. I started out with two small 8” fans mounted on the inside of the radiator that pull air. It was not enough to keep the engine cool at stoplights.. I needed to put a 16” 2500 CFM push fan on that I bought from summit. However, the 16" fan is an 18 amp fan, and I am not sure what the other two small ones draw, but driving at night I am overwhelming my charging system (stock 35amp alternator). So I had to buy a 60 amp alternator, and put the 16" fan on a toggle switch (I only run it at stoplights or in stop and go traffic if I need it).
6. TRANSMISSIONS ARE NOT A CHEAP EASY CONVERSION EITHER BUT A MUST! : Conversion from a 904 trans to a 727 3 speed torqueflight. Don’t rely on a 50 year old 904 transmission to take 400HP..The guy supposedly rebuilt my 904 and put a shift kit and 2800RPM stall converter in it. (because my cam is a .541lift 280 intake 288exahust cam). But back to the trans…within 10 miles I developed a serious trans leak, from the front pump seal. Also…the existing rear 7.5” rear end (found out later) has a 2.92 gears in it. So I was cruising well below 2800 RPM (tough on the torque converter). So I went with a brand new Street/Strip 727 3 speed trans from Performance Automatic (available through summit) they have a lifetime gaurntee, and a 2500-2800 stall converter for about $2200. You will need to find a 727 speedo adapter/gears from someone on this forum because they are HARD to find! The speedo cable itself on the 904 is one solid continuous piece, so you will need a new cable (go to Autozone and ask for a speedo cable from a 66 Dart and I bet you they will have one in stock). The Dart cable will fit the nut on the back of your speedo but the hole for the 904 cable and the 727 cable are NOT the same. You need the larger one.
7.YOU WILL NEED A NEW SHIFTER…and you CAN HAVE A NEW SHIFTER THAT STILL LOOKS OLD SCHOOL : I went with the B&M quick silver shifter. It fits into the existing shift box/cover and looks fairly close to the original. Again, the original shifter for the 904 has two cables and 727 has one..so your kinda forced to do something different than stock. Cost was about $300.00
8. REAR END and GEAR ARE CRITICAL TO THIS PROJECT! . As I said, I converted from a 7.5” rear 2.92 rear end, to a DANA 60 3.54 rear end (custom built by Pyle Brothers in Baytown Texas) for about $3500. The first rear end got torn up within two days (pinion and ring gear had broken worn/teeth) and believe me I was not really hard on it at all. No launches, no crazy burn outs etc. So..what are the pitfalls of a new rear end. ..you have to find new 3” wide Ubolts (from a 70 or higher Cuda/Charger/etc) with new shock mounts (cost me about $200 on Ebay with shipping). You also now need a new driveline, and we needed a new shifter, and new speedometer cable. They tell me the DANA 60 typically in a ¾ or 1 ton truck, and if built for drag racing, can handle up to 1000HP, so they told me I should not ever have anymore problems with that.
9. A NEW DRIVESHAFT WILL BE NEEDED. I had someone in Houston make new a new balanced aluminum drive shaft. The old one was about 2” in diameter, the new one is about 3.5”. IF your going to use the 727 and the Dana 60, your old driveshaft will be too long anyway..so you now need a custom length. Mine was 47” 3/16” long. I have 1350 yolks/u joints, and a nice solid driveline. Cost was about $600
10. EXHAUST I went with new DR Gas X Pipe Exhaust with the 30” Boomtube mufflers. What attracted me to them was the look, sound, and performance. I have met and talked with Boyd Butler..and he has done extensive dyno testing on several different cars. He found that you can get a 10-15 decibel sound reduction from open headers, but not loose any HP with the boomtubes. They have ZERO glass inside, it is all the circular moon shapes he puts in the baffles that quiet it down. The car sounds really cool, and has a cool look that I don’t see anywhere else at Car shows…http://www.drgas.com/boomtubes
So bottom line…I wasted some money, made a lot of mistakes, lost a lot of time. The project took me almost 18 months. I could do it in six months if I had to do it all over again. I would have just gone straight for the throat. Bought a 360 or 383 that put out 400-500HP from Indy Cylnder Head at a cost of about $5000-$7000, bought a new trans, had the new rear end and driveline built. Instead I tried to get by with the old tranny, drive line and rear end. Just not gonna happen (again, to you seasoned veterans…you know better, I didn’t). Hopefully I can save someone some time, pain, and money. I now have about $30,000 in parts and labor in my drive train. It should have cost me about $20,000 or less. That being said..I love it, I am glad I did it, …but I love the car! If you want to see more pictures of the project, it is easier to just go to this youtube link: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDkwrmhScIk"]1965 Plymouth Barracuda tribute car: Pat Clark - YouTube[/ame] hope this helps some people! I love FABO! It has helped me so much! Thanks guys!
OH...ONE MORE THING..HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE DID THE UPGRADE MAKE? According to my research and the factory brochure, the stock 1/4 mile time for a 65 Cuda 273 Comando was 16.1 seconds, I have done some street runs and I am now doing 11.8 to 12.2. So A HUGE DIFFERENCE in torque and pull! The pull from 20MPH to 80 is something amazing to feel! All MOTOR! No nitrous, no superchargers, just motor!
rayer:
