Lost my cam

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j par said:
But it did go through the oil filter first correct? I'm sorry I can't keep up with these posts I go to work in the morning and check things out before I go to work and then all hell breaks loose while I'm at work and I can just get a chance to get back to it.
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Yea, it does but after it goes right through the oil pump gears trashing the clearances.
I'm not trying to be a downer or anything, just trying to get across what could be damaged and what should be checked to keep from wasting money on having to do it over again.
 
Marcohotrod said:
the fine metal went thru the oil pump. but not the bearings cuz U are useing an oil filter
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Heard that before and it wasn't the case at all.
Why were all the bearings trashed with metal particles when I lost one lobe and lifter then?
It was pretty obvious that's what did it.
It's totally possible if it wasn't run very long that it could be minimal but I wouldn't expect it to be just fine and not at least take a look.
 
Purely for discussion's sake because I personally don't have any experience with a cam wiping out on me but I have had my share of problems as most know. Also I've never had A oil pump 100% completely apart so I don't know how close the tolerances are. course I put them in brand new. But I'm thinking this cam didn't just wipe out in a matter of minutes but it took quite some time to slowly and I mean very slowly work this came down to a point to where it's not functioning. In that case I would think that there was no big massive rush of metal particles, but yet it slow gradual loss of Cam?
 
When I wiped the cam on my 318, I pulled the engine apart and found metallic "paste" everywhere, even in the fuel pump opening. My cam wear was pretty extreme though.
 
TrailBeast said:
Heard that before and it wasn't the case at all.
Why were all the bearings trashed with metal particles when I lost one lobe and lifter then?
.
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Any filter has minimum particle size that the filter media will NOT filter out. Those small particles will go on through into the engine. Typical filters, like a NAPA Gold 1515, will let particles in the range of a bit under .001" through. (21 microns is the spec.) That is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of standard bearing clearances so can easily scar or tear up or get embedded into a bearing surface, or scar a metal surface.

For this reason, never use a so-called racing version of a filter in your engine. The particle sizes passed by that filter media will range in the .002-.003" size! Those particles are larger than most standard bearing clearances ===> seems like guaranteed bearing damage.
 
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nm9stheham said:
Any filter has minimum particle size that the filter media will NOT filter out. Those small particles will go on through into the engine. Typical filters, like a NAPA Gold 1515, will let particles in the range of a bit under .001" through. (21 microns is the spec.) That is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of standard bearing clearances so can easily scar or tear up or get embedded into a bearing surface, or scar a metal surface.

For this reason, never use a so-called racing version of a filter in your engine. The particle sizes passed by that filter media will range in the .002-.003" size! Those particles are larger than most standard bearing clearances ===> seems like guaranteed bearing damage.
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Sounds right to me, as it sure made a fair mess of all the bearings.
Very small scores in all of them getting better as it went to the front of the crank.
 
Do all you guys add something to your oil when you change it?
 
reddishdsb said:
Do all you guys add something to your oil when you change it?
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I use this stuff...no additive needed. Kinda pricey, but works great.

DSC02057.JPG
 
Nope. If a cam is aggressive enough to need additives, I'll use racing oil. The majority of stuff, if it's set up properly and the first start and break in are done properly, will be fine with most over-the-counter deisel oils. That's what I recommend and use myself.
 
Okay because we went all the way through to pages and still haven't heard from the original poster to confirm or deny any more I only have this to say:
This rice paper is the test. Fragile as the wings of the dragon fly, clinging as the cocoon of the silk worm. When you can walk its length and leave no trace. You will have learned."
 
reddishdsb said:
Do all you guys add something to your oil when you change it?
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If you have a flat tappet cam, you can use any oil that has 1250 to 1600 ppm of ZDDP or ZDDB . Valvoline VR-1 is just one of many oils that fall within that range.
 
j par said:
Okay because we went all the way through to pages and still haven't heard from the original poster to confirm or deny any more I only have this to say:
This rice paper is the test. Fragile as the wings of the dragon fly, clinging as the cocoon of the silk worm. When you can walk its length and leave no trace. You will have learned."
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To answer your last question about pumps and cams, the pumps use a gear inside a gear type design (just like a trans pump) does.
The high points of those gears pass each other and create an void behind them causing a vacuum and therefore sucking oil up into that void.
As the gears turn further that void starts closing and forces the oil out a different port into the oil filter and out into the engine.
When the tips of those high spots in the gears gets damaged, or the clearance between them gets too far apart they loose the ability to make a seal sufficient to pull up oil from the pan.
The acceptable gear clearances are normally about 1/2 of one thousandth of an inch so if you have metal particles in the oil that are anywhere near or over that it takes material off the tips (high spots of the gears) cause a loss of vacuum as well as a loss of pressure. (more loss of vacuum specifically) which in turn causes a loss of pressure.
This is a big reason why some people can't seem to get oil pressure back after draining their oil.
Just not enough vacuum for the pump to get it's prime.

Here's a pic of the inside of a typical engine type oil pump just for kicks.
Where the gears edges pass each other is where the tolerance can be less than .005 so anything bigger than that can wear off the gears. (keeping in mind that this is not yet filtered oil.) so bigger crap can and does get sucked up and run through the pump.
There are acceptable clearances on the top and bottom of the gear faces also, but for the sake of the length of this I think we can skip that.

Cams and lifters have a hardened surface only, so once the surface is damaged a cam and lifter can wear down really fast because of how soft they are just under that hardened surface.

pump.jpg
 
Anyone know how big (thick) the cam wear metal might be? I'd think it would be really, really fine dust-like particles since that cam is typically cast iron.
 
reddishdsb said:
Do all you guys add something to your oil when you change it?
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No, I would rather buy an oil with the desired ZDDP level than use an additive. This is because each engine oil has a particular additive package already, and mixing in another additive package holds the very real potential to modify the original additives in a way that make them less effective, even to the point of increasing engine wear. That is not to say that some additives won't work well with some particular oils; it is just that we don't usually have any accurate way to know ahead of time how any particular additive will react with a given oil.

When looking for that correct ZDDP number for a flat tappet cam, be aware that different ZDDP levels may be found in different weights of some oil brands. The lighter weight oils tend to be more likely to have low ZDDP numbers. Take the time to look up the ZDDP spec's; they are not hard to find with Google.
 
69_340_GTS said:
Anyone know how big (thick) the cam wear metal might be? I'd think it would be really, really fine dust-like particles since that cam is typically cast iron.
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You are correct, it's like metal powder.
The lifter isn't though and they wear off when a lobe goes also.
 
69_340_GTS said:
Anyone know how big (thick) the cam wear metal might be? I'd think it would be really, really fine dust-like particles since that cam is typically cast iron.
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The hardened area varies with manufacturer and process, but it is normally a steel core hardened to .100- .140 thick before finish grinding after the hardening process.
 
Some of yall use some $$/fancy earl and additives. I just use valvoline 15-40 diesel, got some plain ol zinc in it (or zddp if you prefer) and havent ever lost a hydraulic. $12 a gallon.
Quaker state Defy does too for those on a budget, but thats a "hi-mileage" deal so who knows what else is in the add pack.
 
I'm with you, skizzo. As a private builder my perspective is it's up to me to make sure everything is working together properly before the customer ever gets to influence it. So if it's all done right, the over the counter diesel oils will be fine for most mild camshafts, even those noted as "hi rate of lift" but are of such a size that it doesn't make much of a difference.
In regard to particulates in the crankcase and oiling system... The issue is not just in the system. IMO, once the oil enters the pickup the filtering will take effect and will be as effective as that system will typically be, depending on the filter and oil used. Meaning big hard particles will wear the oil pump faster, and a large amount of junk will clog the filter and cause it to bypass. The secondary issue is spashing oil. Piston skirts and rings are very susceptible to that along with the timing set, and lower valvetrain parts. Iron will wear on iron. It's that simple. So by not taking everything out and cleaning it, and "sanitizing" the system, owners run a risk of creating a very fast rate of wear. Like tens of miles worst-case.
That all being said - when I was younger I took a hydraulic roller cam and ran the lifters with no dog bones (retainers that keep them aligned with the cam lobe). It ate it in a matter of 30 miles, and it put iron of all sizes into the oil system. I then pulled that cam an lifters, put in a new hydraulic flat tappet, broke it is, and drive that engine another 2 years before I blew a piston apart under nitrous abuse. So.. it's a gamble. Only the guy paying for it is risking anything so IMO it's up too him/her.
 
Everyone does realize the op has not been in contact with this post in two days since it was started?? I'm going to LMAO when the op finally chimes back in and says it was a dead lifter. Not enough zddp? Why did it the lack of zddp just take out one cam lobe and not all?
Another FABO thread go off on it's own from a wild guess LOL
 
Right, but part of this whole internet forum deal is just entertaining ourselves....so a thread spun off into left field is just fine for that LOL

To continue in that vein.... I can certainly see one lifter and lobe being more susceptible to sudden failure than others. There are enough variables to make that possible IMHO. Doesn't mean others are not on their way....
 
j par said:
Everyone does realize the op has not been in contact with this post in two days since it was started?? I'm going to LMAO when the op finally chimes back in and says it was a dead lifter. Not enough zddp? Why did it the lack of zddp just take out one cam lobe and not all?
Another FABO thread go off on it's own from a wild guess LOL
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There isn't a lot of wild guess involved in a rocker not rockin. :D
That only goes two ways, as it either ate the cam or it didn't.
 
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