Megasquirt MS3 EFI - 360LA

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Plato2k5

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There has been some interest in this system that I run on my 360 powered wrangler. I figure I would post what it is and how it has worked for me. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have about this setup. I should be able to answer just about any.

This system is 100% tunable. You hook up a laptop and set your fuel maps, air/fuel maps, can control timing, use a wide band O2 to control fueling, boost control, launch control, nitrous control, etc...... The software is open source, meaning anyone who has programing now how can have it do what they want. There really is no limitation!

Nice feature is the ability to data log. Go drive around and capture the data. You are able to monitor any sensor to check for faults and to just see what your engine is doing. If it’s running rich you will see where and why and are able to make changes.

Typical data log:


I first started out using a chevy 350 TBI on an Edelbrock dual plane intake. It was OK, but could never get it to run great. After a few years I decided it was time to go true EFI and purchased http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-28155/overview/make/chrysler.

Freshly powdercoated intake elbow and rails:


One coated rail vs. natural aluminum that has been bead blasted:


I plugged the injector holes and slapped the TBI back on as I had an off-road trip to attend and didn't have time to complete the EFI swap. WOW, the difference from dual to single plane was HUGE!!! Much better response and power.

Once home I pulled the TBI and put the 8 injectors in. It does cost more money to go with a true EFI setup, but I would not waste my time with a TBI if you are not running a stock engine.



My setup: (Sorry dirty pic is all I have)







I run 2006 Ford 5.4 injectors
Ford Econoline inline fuel pump
Aeromotive FPR set to 45 Psi
Throttle body is from a Ford 5.0

www.diyautotune.com is where I purchased my ECU. You can buy the kit and solder it all yourself. I went this route......and boy was it a pain! If you have the money, just buy it built.


When i first went out my engine would cut in and out every so often. I dataloged a drive and played it back. I could see the reason it was cutting out was because I was loosing the signal from the tach. RPM would drop to 0, which would show the engine is off and fuel would stop being injected. Found out a jumper wire in the computer was installed for the wrong type of ignition pickup. After 10 mins, it was fixed!



Wiring is not hard. But the harness pigtail and just it to each sensor. The wires are labeled very nicely so you can't screw it up. Make sure you ground the sensors correctly or you will have noise!



What else would you all want to know???? I feel I am rambling.......
 
Mucho helpful! I thought about doing this for a cammed up 383. The biggest PITA for that app would probably be modifying the manifold for the injectors and having custom rails made, and that's not even that bad. I know a couple places that I could have it done. This is good info-I know the forums on diy are bound to be pretty helpful too, I just haven't gone through them.

Thanks again!
 
How much do you think this cost you?
Did you have any experience in tuning with the computer? Is experience required?
Did that elbow come with the intake from Summitt or was that additional?
When you talk about soldering it yourself, do you mean building the wiring harness?

I have an 89 Ram with a TBI 318 that I want to put a 350hp 360 in. This looks like exactly what I would need to do to fuel inject it.

Cley
 
You can buy the extruded rails in custome lengths. People then epoxy the injector bungs in the manifold. I needed a new intake so just bought it.done from summit and bought the rails for it.

Also if you have an android phone you can connect.to.the.computer by Bluetooth and have it.display all your stuff and use GPS for Speedo. Its a digital.dash!!! You can data log with it to and it will send it to an online server to download when you get.home.
 
Had zero experience. Just started messing with it. Took a long time to learn...still learning. I've been through it all...hence me saying I could probably answer any questions lol.

Solder every resistor, diod, capacitor, etc. To the blank circuit board.....so very time consuming and tedious. I'd say over 100 components.

Elbow was additional. You can buy two kinds...I think they offer a 45* with the 90* like I have.
 
When I get home I will get a parts list with numbers posted.
 
Don't know how to word this, but it comes minus all programming, correct? There is no "base" fuel map/timing info etc.? If so, safe to assume that cruising the MS forums will probably find a setup to at least get it up & running?
 
Plato -great post, thank you. I was building and learning with the Megasquirt system for my 451 Challenger. I started with MS II and learned fast. My goal was doing it in pieces, fuel pump first, sensors, ignition, all stuff I could use on EFI and carbureted. I built my manifold and rails, then sold the project.

I am looking to build a boosted setup, will eventually go to a MS3 system for HEI, seems the best setup.

Again nice post
 
Correct. You have to load the firmware you want. Then fill all the values in...... You can find some base 350 tunes to start. But it gets more in depth. There is an autotune function...just drive and it will start adjusting fuel. Ill go more in depth later when im at the keyboard
 
I have a 426 hemi that i mega squirted and it turned out to be the best thing i did to that motor.Before squirting it it was such a cold blooded beast it took some of the fun out of driving it the 1st ten minutes or so. I would start car let warm up until it was up to temp 160-180 put into gear back up and i had to have one foot on break and one on gas to brake and feather gas to keep from stalling. It was that way for the first 3 blocks /stop signs, then every thing would be fine.

A friend talked me into squirting it it took him 2 yrs to convince me,I gave in and did and like i said it was the best thing i did Megasquirt tamed the beast and made a lot more streetable, now i can get in start up engine and like a modern car i can put it into gear and drive with out stalling and i get better throttle response, and with tuning no lean or rich spots anywhere in any RPM range. And with a carb i had to run a mix of 110 octane and 93 octane (25%-75%). Now with better fuel atomization i can run 93 octane with no problem.

With the megasquirt computer i am in the process of installing coil on plug and doing away with distributor and MSD ignition. If there is any interest in pictures i can post some pictures.

I am also in the process of installing megasquirt on a 340 for a duster project i am working on. As far as concerned the carburetor is dead unless you have a numbers matching vehicle. The only thing a carb is good for is to gut it and make a low cost throttle-body to help keep cost down with EFI.
 
I'm curious, why did you choose to run Ford bits instead of, say, Magnum stuff or Chevy stuff?
I'd think, on the cheap, that you could run Magnum fuel rails and injectors (I have that laying around), fit Magnum sensors on an old four-barrel (or use an adapter), etc.

Can you use a throttle body from a TBI for the sensors, and toss the TBI stuff and use it as a port-injection throttle body?
 
jos51700 said:
I'm curious, why did you choose to run Ford bits instead of, say, Magnum stuff or Chevy stuff?
I'd think, on the cheap, that you could run Magnum fuel rails and injectors (I have that laying around), fit Magnum sensors on an old four-barrel (or use an adapter), etc.

Can you use a throttle body from a TBI for the sensors, and toss the TBI stuff and use it as a port-injection throttle body?
Click to expand...


I would say its because the factory Magnum rails and injectors wont supply alot of power but I am just guessing there.
 
hotrod426 said:
the carburetor is dead unless you have a numbers matching vehicle. The only thing a carb is good for is to gut it and make a low cost throttle-body to help keep cost down with EFI.
Click to expand...


Prepare for a beating if some of the people that refuse to step out of the 60's read that statement.....

Would like to see some coil on plug/distributor-less photos please. I know Rich Nedbal has built a few cop HEMIS......be interesting to see a different perspective

http://fastmanefi.com/photos.htm
 
What version board, etc are you using?


The dilemma I'm in-----I have a Holley commander 950 (TBI) which I hope to convert to multiport, and I do have some parts. The commander ECU WILL work mpi, "but..."

There is no real autotune with that ECU, hence thinking of going MS

The dilemma I'm in would be "I think" I can, and would like to maintain ECU swappability for emergency, IE "the ecu quit."

Now I THINK that the Holley uses a GM connector, but have not been able to confirm that. Nobody over at MS "feels like answering" yet.

MS makes some kits they call "PNP" which come with GM, Ford, etc connectors, so IF that connector would swap (maybe with some pinout changes on one to the other) that would be great

I was thinking this version would give me what I need (but generic connector)

http://www.diyautotune.com/faq/megasquirt_efi_ecu_options_diy_details.htm

"MegaSquirt-II PCBv3.0 - Upgrading the processor gives lots of new and improved, features including a finer degree of fuel control (great for tuning idle with large injectors) and native ignition control. This is an affordable and feature packed unit that was just recently released and will be further developed to add more and more features over time. As this is based on the PCB3.0, it also has several upgrades making the unit more robust and harder to damage with a wiring mistake. Also has circuitry to directly drive a coil without an external ignitor. No upgrade needed for low-z injectors. Kit is $266. Assembled units are $420."

So I think but have not confirmed that this version will give me the same features as above, and with I hope swappability with the Holley ECU the kit is DIYPNPD56-K

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diypnp-delphi-56pin-unassembled-kit-p-389.html

This is the type connector on the MS "PNP" GM version, which looks just like the Holley

d56_sm.jpg
 
I would like to in time go to coils....but at the same time what I have works so why change it.

As far as durability on these computers go.... its in my jeep. It sees air time, bumps, mud, dirt, water, cold, hot, washboards, sand dunes, you name it its seen it. I have NEVER had an issue with connectivity or failure.

Now, I have had issues with the internal MAP sensor due to my own fault. You want to ensure it is mounted higher then the intake or that the out coming hose is higher then the intake. Mine would get plugged with oil and the MAP reading would say I was 100% wide open throttle. This would not allow it to start because it would just dump fuel in.

I did not use the magnum stuff as I have an LA engine. I had the heads worked and did not want to change them for magnum. You could use that stuff with out any issues.

I used Ford parts because thats what I had found for cheap at the local you pull yard. I would use GM or Ford.

You can run any type of TPS and program it. Same with water and intake temp sensors. Just find out what resistance it is at x temp and fill in the chart.

You could use the TBI for the sensors. Just to me it looks less appealing. People will even use a carb that is gutted for the same thing.

The PNP stuff is for STOCK computers. I would highly doubt it would work with your system. Give Matt a call at DIYautotune and ask? I would just re-wire it for MS as there are a lot of optional stuff you can do.

The Autotune function will get you close to where you want to be. Be ready to spend time smoothing the fuel table though for nice transitions. With a wideband controller you can tell it how much authority you want it to have in adding or subtracting fuel to meet your AFR target.

I run the MSII V3.0 and wired in a bluetooth adapter board internally so I can use my phone to data log and as a cool dashboard for quick readouts. Geek factor :) Soon you will be able to tune from your phone or tablet.

This is the tuning software I use: http://tunerstudio.com/ Very great stuff!!!! Updated frequently!

Keep the questions coming
 
Somebody really needs to create a sticky with a complete parts list and a walk through on how to put one of these systems together , I've looked at the Holley and Eddy systems but they're like $3500 which is way too much in my eye's .
 
cannucky said:
Somebody really needs to create a sticky with a complete parts list and a walk through on how to put one of these systems together , I've looked at the Holley and Eddy systems but they're like $3500 which is way too much in my eye's .
Click to expand...

Yep, it gets pricey. Seems to me part of what you are paying for when you buy a "complete system" is the basic programming to get it up & running....

Stumbled cross a site that sells pretty much all of the EFI systems, except the MS. They mention damn near everywhere on there site that you will be supplied "with a program sufficient to be driven on"...I emailed and asked them about getting an un-progrmammed unit and was told they would not sell one that way. I explained that I have access to a program that was set up on pretty much an identical setup to what I have in mind and they still said no....sorta makes you wonder.....
 
I could do that for a sticky.

I probably have around 2k in mine. But i did tbi first. The intake and such is what costed so much. Also my.ngk wideband was $300 on its own.
 
jos51700 said:
I'm curious, why did you choose to run Ford bits instead of, say, Magnum stuff or Chevy stuff?
I'd think, on the cheap, that you could run Magnum fuel rails and injectors (I have that laying around), fit Magnum sensors on an old four-barrel (or use an adapter), etc.

Can you use a throttle body from a TBI for the sensors, and toss the TBI stuff and use it as a port-injection throttle body?
Click to expand...

The elbow he used is very well suited to use the Ford Mustang style TB, and there are tons of folks ditching their old stuff for pennies on the dollar to upgrade to the bigger TBs or MAF sensors, etc. When I installed a Vortech on my Mustang, I found a set of 42lb injectors for like $150 and they were in near perfect shape...they usually went for about $320 at the time. Same thing with a 77mm MAF sensor. It was set up to "match" the 42lb injectors and only cost me $75 plus shipping...they usually went for nearly $400 new.

If you have appropriate parts laying around that will suit your purpose, by all means keep them, but if you're upgrading or running something custom (like a new intake) then departing from brand loyalty sometimes serves your new function better than the factory stuff...and cheaper. There was a guy selling a '72 Swinger with a MS setup on a 5.2 Magnum...it was still running the kegger intake and TB, so you definitely can...just gotta match up your parts just like with any other project.
 
Plato2k5 said:
The PNP stuff is for STOCK computers. I would highly doubt it would work with your system. Give Matt a call at DIYautotune and ask? I would just re-wire it for MS as there
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

Only reason I was thinking about the PNP stuff was so the Holley / MS connectors were the same. I can repin on or the other to match, and maintain interchangeability

Otherwise, maybe I can get "those guys" to toss in that connector and make an adapter. Just a thought at this time.
 
here are some pictures of my set up they are not very good took them with camera on my notebook computer, i will get some better ones later this week.
Image4-Copy_zpscdad6363.jpg

Trigger Wheel and Pick up

Image5_zpsb7082868.jpg

Throttle body, custom throttle linkage bracket.

Image6_zps100f9817.jpg

Picture of the throttle body, fuel regulator, fuel rails and coil packs


Image9_zpsaf8ca2af.jpg

Existing fuel pump and filter. I have a fuel cell mounted in the trunk because stock fuel tank dumps fuel out of filler neck on heavy acceleration.
Image7_zpsae15a4e7.jpg

This is the sump for the fuel cell in tank fuel pump. Right now when the cell gets below a quarter tank of gas, the fuel sloshing around allows a little air in to pump and i get a little hiccup.also you can see the small block intake i'm setting up with EFI for my 340.

Image1_zpsb2c00b3a.jpg

Overall picture, distributor is still in, coil packs are wired in, waiting on plug wires. Car still runs.


I have the ms III 3.57 board i think i will verify that and i will compile a list and prices and i'll try to list the places where i purchased items. This may take a few days to remember. And the old timers need to get with the times, I'm 50 and it took me 2 yrs to convince me to change but once i did i was glad i did.And once i had the car running on EFI you realize how stupid carbs are.And i think with the younger generation they are growing up with computers and they dont want to mess with carbs.
 
I had a DIYPNP unit on my toyota. I assembled everything myself. If I had to do it all again I would have just got an assembled unit. It worked very well though. You can do almost anything with megasquirt. It is a bit hard to figure everything out. If your not too great with computers or technology in general I would recommend you have someone help you.
 
Don't know who you were addressing. I have considerable electronics experience. The big problem with MS is that it's not copartmentalized enough for me, that is I have a difficult time summarizing all the different variances. Need a "flow chart," LOL

So far as assembly, no problem

My Holley 950 requires programming, no "self learn" other than a 3rd party software that is pretty cheap (Tazman, er somebody) which helped.

Big big really big problem I have now with the Holley is (low buck, used, LOL) it's the largest, 900 cfm body, with the largest injectors, and they "need to run" at very very narrow PW and I'm basically out of tuning range on 'em. If it looks like I can move ahead on MPFI, I don't want to fiddle with the TBI any further. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to scare up some smaller injectors. They are hard to find under a hundred a shot, and I need two. These are the newer type Holley, and no body seems to know?? if they are actually the same as some OEM, or "special" to Holley. Holley of course, "ain't sayin"
 
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