My Transformation 5.7 Gen 3 in 74 Dart Sport

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If I can buy 30 HP for less than $800 (minus the cam I already have) , I would probably do that.

What all is required to swap the spring? How deep do you have to go?
 
Valve covers off, rocker shafts and pushrods out. Mancini is just one place that sells an on engine valve spring compressor.
 
408 swinger said:
Valve covers off, rocker shafts and pushrods out. Mancini is just one place that sells an on engine valve spring compressor.
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Easy enough. Sounds like a lot less work than the actual cam swap. May look into this further....

thanks!
 
Ronald C. The 6.4 works great in the 5.7, the best cam to use is the one for the 6 spd Manual trans(non MDS cam) part# 05037379BC. The cam smooths out the power curve of the 5.7 Eagle and really pulls hard from 3000 to past 6000 RPM's. If your engine came out of a manual 6 spd car all you have to do is change valve springs. The 5.7 springs has a 1.99 installed height and go into coil bind at around .550 lift. The 6.4 springs are 2.051 installed height, so even the 6.4 will be close to coil bind on the Eagle head. The Mopar Performance P5160074 spring kit is what you need(good for .625 lift) or the PSI 1511 springs(same .625 lift) with Comp Cams 761-16 retainers and Manely 42324-16 spring cup locators(.205 thick)plus 8 .020 shims for intake and 8 .030 for exhaust( remove the factory .040 shims) to get close to there 1.800 height. Know if you have a 5.7 out of and auto trans car you have to pull the heads and change the lifters too and shut off the MDS. Or use the 6.4 auto cam( just change springs again) which may or may not work as good as the manual cam( read of some guys losing power with the auto cam, could have been the tuner though). This set up works even better with the 6.4 SRV intake manifold set to go into short runner mode at 4800 rpm's with a MSD 8969 window switch and long tube headers. All of these mods will need a good tuner to work there best. Will run on stock tune but not at its optimal and may through CEL codes
 
So the 5.7 I have came out of an auto, and the 6.4 cam I am entertaining putting in is a 419AB stock 6.4.
So here again, if pulling the valve cover is as deep as I would have to go, minus the front end for the cam swap, I may be in. But I’m not to interested in pulling heads on a fresh motor just yet. Would rather just hold off until I do the lifter rework and make other modifications at the same time, cam included.....

Thoughts?
 
Okay you have the MDS auto cam, all you need to do is change valve springs. Easy to do with engine out of car, intake are easy and exhaust are a little tougher with the engine in the car. Be very careful when reinstalling the push rods if the engine is in the car(hard to see the right holes in the heads)oil return hole are right next to the push rod holes and oil return hole are tapered the push rod hole are not, push rods seem to always want to fall into the tapered holes. I ran the 6.4 379BC cam, 6.4 intake,85mm throttle body and 1 7/8 headers and SRT 2 3/4 cat back on my 2012 Challenger R/T and really woke that 5.7 up, pull hard up to 6500 with no dips in the power curve. This past summer I put a custom cam in with the same duration at .050 as the 6.4 but cut on a 112* center line(6.4 is 121) and more lift. A little harder to tune but runs even stronger. The Mopar spring kit is about half the cost of the PSI kit( the Mopar kit was not available when I did my springs in 2014).
 
19DART66 said:
Okay you have the MDS auto cam, all you need to do is change valve springs. Easy to do with engine out of car, intake are easy and exhaust are a little tougher with the engine in the car. Be very careful when reinstalling the push rods if the engine is in the car(hard to see the right holes in the heads)oil return hole are right next to the push rod holes and oil return hole are tapered the push rod hole are not, push rods seem to always want to fall into the tapered holes. I ran the 6.4 379BC cam, 6.4 intake,85mm throttle body and 1 7/8 headers and SRT 2 3/4 cat back on my 2012 Challenger R/T and really woke that 5.7 up, pull hard up to 6500 with no dips in the power curve. This past summer I put a custom cam in with the same duration at .050 as the 6.4 but cut on a 112* center line(6.4 is 121) and more lift. A little harder to tune but runs even stronger. The Mopar spring kit is about half the cost of the PSI kit( the Mopar kit was not available when I did my springs in 2014).
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You make a convincing argument for doing it with it sounding relatively straightforward. 30 HP gain a reasonable expectation based on results you have seen?
 
I have seen dyno pulls other guys on the internet with this cam an similar mods pull 60 hp or more at the rear wheels.
 
19DART66 said:
I have seen dyno pulls other guys on the internet with this cam an similar mods pull 60 hp or more at the rear wheels.
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I’m curious, and probably talking in circles now, but if you are swapping the springs/shims/etc, is it just as easy to put a (potentially) higher HP, better performance cam instead of the 6.4? Just thinking if your going to replace these items, is it better to just replace once and get a better cam?
 
That is why I used the PSI 1511 springs, they are good for up to .625 lift and have enough spring tension for most of the after market shelf cams made for the 5.7 and 6.4 VVT Hemis. I put a 6.4 cam in my 2012 Challenger R/T in 2014 with these valve springs and than in 2019 I put in a custom ground cam with .590 lift in it. Cam grinder spec the same valve springs. The Mopar Performance valve springs are rated about the same as the PSI springs and they are spec for the Comp 270 VVT cam (.615/.609 lift) through Mopar. The part# for the Mopar Performance spring kit is P5160074.
 
So how do you determine the spring pressure of the Mopar Spring kit? Would it accommodate up to Hellcat cam if I eventually swapped that in when doing a MDS delete? Looks like this kit (the same one you mentioned) is saying no need for shim and retainer swap....

CD8FECBE-0C61-4439-B745-9BF6E49A7D1B.jpeg
 
Kiddart1 said:
A while ago (January 2017) I started asking a bunch of questions here and over on "A-Bodies only", regarding the swap I planed to do. My son started to get me thinking about it when he decided to put a 5.7 in his belvedere(still in the works)

My swap started because I was tired of running strictly race fuel in my 415sb motor, I started (December 2018)selling off as much of my running small block to a few members here on Moparts/A-bodies. once all the parts were sold I then stared to buy the gen 3 parts and pieces.

what I first started with was a 2004 Durango 5.7 with a large amount of internal issues. I paid $50 dollars for the core(and still have all the parts). then I started to piece it together and one small learning issue at a time. I decided to put that motor aside and purchase a 2007 running motor(as I was told from Carolina exchange, I will never due business with him again) that ended up being just a little better than the Durango core I bought. I was able to get away with a Hone job two new pistons, new bearings, oil pump, timing chain and gears and found a set of 09 eagle heads, new Head gaskets, Prefix intake, MSD hemi 6, TTI headers, TTI motor mounts, oil filter relocation kit hoses etc..

The motor is now in the car all bolted up and almost ready to fire up. It has taken me from January till today to be with in a few days of firing up. I could have taken a week off work and completed the entire swap in one week but I have many other things going on in my life besides my car hobby.(Wife, adult children, house, job(travel) and the most important is the honey due list) so at a snails pace I am getting there.

I cant say that during this swap it has all been troublesome but there are challenges as you go. I have really read and studied the guys blogs that have already completed there swaps and believe it or not, all the different swaps in all the different cars, its all worth reading about. all the way down to radiator hose selection and thermos stat temp.

I do have some pictures of the motor on the stand and in the car that I will post so hopefully I can help someone else down the road. if I have the pictures I will post them. I have had a lot of fun with this and it was just to prove you can get a junk yard pull out motor to run good and fun doing it.

Stay tuned for some pictures

UPDATE!!! 7-28-19

I was able to finally fire this motor up!!

But let me tell you how important is to pack the oil pump with Assembly lube or with petroleum Jelly at oil pump install!!!!

I hand cranked this motor backwards for about two hours sucking oil in the pump to prime and then forward with no luck of priming the motor. We finally decided to force the oil in from the oil pressure gage to get oil in the top of the motor. At no point did I feel comfortable that the motor was primed enough because I could not get oil to travel thru motor by hand cranking it.

At this point I was tired, hot, and cranky(pardon the pun) so I said the hell with it. I put the plugs in it and turned the power on to the MSD6 and let it eat.

The first turn of the key it fired for about 3 seconds then stopped

The second turn of the key she fired up and ran I shut off at about 10 seconds or less with no oil pressure but heard the air hissing up thru the rockers what a crazy sound

The third start it fired right off and the oil pressure came on like crazy, slowly climbing to 40psi then shot to 75 psi instantly!! what a relief!!!
(I felt if I burn up the bearings it was coming out to pack the pump anyways)

I let the motor run for a little bit and it started to surge the efi was starting to learn the motor so I thought.
* the reason for surging was I had the Map sensor for the MSD6 on the back of the throttle body and the two(Fast EFI/MSD6 were fighting for dominance. I unplugged the MSD6 map sensor plug and the idle flattened right out at 850rpm

It smelled like it was fat but really it was lean due to my eyes were burning a little, I have 110 octane in the car now that is old and cant wait to get 93 in it. So I have to sort that out and that's easy with the Fast EFI.

I think my starter is getting hung up on the converter so I may need to shim it back. While I was hand cranking I also unplugged the computers and cranked by the key then back to manual and heard what sounded like the starter hanging up on the convertor and then disengage, has anyone else noticed this? not a big deal but I have never had to shim a starter on a Mopar.

I have uploaded a video to You Tube and have the link. I am so far super happy with the what I see so far and hear, the 6.1 cam is invisible to super smooth idle. Enjoy the link and I now can't wait to hook up the exhaust tie up so loose ends with wiring and take it for a ride.

I am taking a few days off to spend time with my wife as I have been in garage since Thursday night. I will also add some still pictures to this as well



I can answer some questions as I am now experienced 5.7 transplant guy LOL
Would I do it again, you bet you bottom dollar I would!!!
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As far as header and steering clearance what did you do just tti headers? I have been saving up to get a steering unit and headers and I am ready to make this dart of mine move with this 5.7 hemi I have I have the tti motor mounts I just need headers and steering unit to clear each other and I'm in business. Any help is greatly appreciated
 
In looking for options to the TTI, there were a lot of “suggestions” but those making the suggestions NEVER would say definitively if it worked or not. IMO, you will more than likely spend the same amount of money in the end as if you were to just wait until you can get the TTI. Anyone and everyone will tell you the TTI works. If there was a better option, I suspect we would have heard about it by now. With that said, I in no way am saying there isn’t one, I’m just saying not that anyone is talking about just yet.

TTI headers, and Borgeson pump if using power steering, seems to be the combo that works. (And the price is not cheap and way more than I think it should be FWIW, but what are you going to do?)
 
It is not very easy to come up with spec for Mopar Performance parts for gen 3 Hemi's. But that being said, the springs are the ones that come in the stage 2 scat pack kit with the Comp 270 cam(spec's, Comp 201-426-17 270/283 advertise 222/[email protected] .615/.609 lift lsa 115*) this is a larger cam then the Hell Cat cam. These springs are also recommended for the 6.4 cam swap in the 5.7 Eagle, which is just slightly smaller than the Hell Cat cam. Springs should work well for what you want to do.
 
19DART66 said:
It is not very easy to come up with spec for Mopar Performance parts for gen 3 Hemi's. But that being said, the springs are the ones that come in the stage 2 scat pack kit with the Comp 270 cam(spec's, Comp 201-426-17 270/283 advertise 222/[email protected] .615/.609 lift lsa 115*) this is a larger cam then the Hell Cat cam. These springs are also recommended for the 6.4 cam swap in the 5.7 Eagle, which is just slightly smaller than the Hell Cat cam. Springs should work well for what you want to do.
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So I shouldn’t have to replace shims and retainers? I just ordered the kit in the picture but wondering if I will run into a height/spring bind if I don’t put in smaller shim. To me, best I can tell, it should be as easy as old spring out, new springs I ordered back in. Swap cam, have the MDS turned off in programming, and push a new tune.

I make mention of Hellcat cam only because I think what I may do is go down the road of this 6.4. Then when/if I see lifter issues, I may swap with HC cam, MDS lifter delete, and a little boost. And it sounds like the springs I ordered should handle either scenario.

Does this all sound about right or I have missed something?
 
I am assuming the MP springs would be set to the stock height(1.99 Inches installed height)on the 5.7 Eagle heads and need to be shimmed for the 6.4 Apache head(2.051 inches installed height) to put them back to the 5.7 installed height of 1.99 inches. Yes use the factory shims, retainers, and locks from the 5.7 Eagle heads, as far as I know with the MP springs. Yes to the cam MDS turn off and new tune.
 
19DART66 said:
I am assuming the MP springs would be set to the stock height(1.99 Inches installed height)on the 5.7 Eagle heads and need to be shimmed for the 6.4 Apache head(2.051 inches installed height) to put them back to the 5.7 installed height of 1.99 inches. Yes use the factory shims, retainers, and locks from the 5.7 Eagle heads, as far as I know with the MP springs. Yes to the cam MDS turn off and new tune.
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Perfect!

any tips on the spring compression too. Of choice?
 
I used the one from Crane cams, it was the list expensive one for doing the springs with the heads still on the engine.
 
Took the hose and spark plug end off an old compression tester and put a male end on it so I could plug it into my air compressor hose and turned the regulator down to around 70 to 80 pounds if I remember right.
 
GOOD NEWS UPDATE!!!!!
Ok so I have a good news update, My son who I would be lost without has been diving into the MSD controller and changing timing to support the e85, he then jumps on the efi system and plays with that. I do have to say I really like how the motor is running. we started with built in tune from MSD, re did the efi adding 30% more cubic inch to it, made some adjustments to pre squirt the AFR settings and added a bunch of timing so far. it responds to every change good or bad. Right now we are at 27 degrees of timing and climbing. we decided to not do any more last night as some of the neighbors were starting to get a little caterpillar eyed every time we took the car out on the main road. we are going to pick back up this weekend and try to get to 32 degrees or at least until it stops responding to change, or pre detonation takes place. I just might pop the heads off and remove the shim i have in the head gasket as well.

so far so good and only waisted about $3 in e85 tuning verse $15 of race fuel with the old motor.

21 miles last night and no issues, I think I just paid for the swap!!!
 
a long time coming we finally have some real-world ET and mph with this swap. we were at Ubly Dragway on Oct 30th. my son behind the wheel and with a very conservative tune (break-in tune), per my son.

1st pass off the trailer was 11.34 at 120mph. the car is on drag radials that actually sucked, good to poor prep. he ran the car 4, 1/4 mile passes all in the 11.3 range and then 4 1/8 mile passes that were in the 7.5 to 7.3 range. I am happy but Cameron is not. he called in a favor to a tuner friend of his and got a tune that was called "Hold On Tight" he loaded that tune, headed to the lanes and they closed the lanes for the day so he could not run another pass. All in all, he took third place in the bracket race. not a bad day made a few dollars.

By the way this was his first attempt at racing at the track. he did good!! now a few minor changes. I have new slicks coming and we might change the converter to a higher stall and let it hang out one last time. he is searching for the 10"s. it's in there. the car was on a string all day, not a wiggle nothing, just a lot of lost speed and MPH due to track prep.
its currently on a Nitto 555 at 18psi. we could have gone down on psi but the car was really stable and consistent. if you are winning you don't make changes.

they sprayed the track at noon and never touched it again.

So yes, to answer any one's questions. Yes, I would do this swap 100 times over. I am currently doing a gen 3 motor for my demon, but this motor wasn't pulled out of a junk yard.
 
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