Need help on Turbocharging a 318

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Mad Dart:

100f charge temps are not a reasonable design target, unless you only plan to drive the car on 40 degree mornings. Heck, around here I can't even get 100f intake air for half the year.

Intercoolers are only so efficient, and compressors all heat the air. Charge air temps in the 160 to 180 range are not unreasonable. It is not like the density issue with an aspirated engine. Running more fuel helps, as does using the heat of vaporization to reduce charge temperature.

Very few engines with Roots blowers have any sort of intercooler, and they do just fine. The ricer crowd with huge turbos on 1.6L bangers with intercoolers the size of the hood have distorted the picture of what is necessary.


7 duce:

The oil return on a turbocharger is important. It must enter the engine above the oil level in the pan, and have enough slope to drain well. Typically we use a line with a 1/2" or larger bore, like a dash 10 AN line. On a 318 I would return the oil in to the front cover.

The turbocharger bearing is fed pressurized engine oil from the oil system with a small oil line (dash 4) and is metered with an orifice. Usually about a .025 to .045 hole. The oil feeds the bearings & cools the shaft assembly. The very high shaft speed tends to whip the oil in to foam, which is the reason for the large return line.

Water cooled units have a water passage in the center section as well as the oil feed to the bearings. Water cooling can help with bearing life, especially in passenger cars that get shut off after a hard run with no cool down for the turbocharger.

B.
 
These are pictures of the Mock up Engine. There are Mega pictures in my TT Thread, see my signature.

You can see the -4an feed lines to the turbo's. There is an .050 Restrictor you can see "the silver fittings" on each line at the back of the blocks oil feed. I have recently removed those restrictors and put new Restrictors the bolt to the turbo and accept the -4an fittings. Those new restrictors are .060. I used -10an Drains to the front of the oil pan that is plenty above the oil level in the pan for drain back.

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bohica2xo said:
Mad Dart:

100f charge temps are not a reasonable design target, unless you only plan to drive the car on 40 degree mornings. Heck, around here I can't even get 100f intake air for half the year.

Intercoolers are only so efficient, and compressors all heat the air. Charge air temps in the 160 to 180 range are not unreasonable. It is not like the density issue with an aspirated engine. Running more fuel helps, as does using the heat of vaporization to reduce charge temperature.

Very few engines with Roots blowers have any sort of intercooler, and they do just fine. The ricer crowd with huge turbos on 1.6L bangers with intercoolers the size of the hood have distorted the picture of what is necessary.


7 duce:

The oil return on a turbocharger is important. It must enter the engine above the oil level in the pan, and have enough slope to drain well. Typically we use a line with a 1/2" or larger bore, like a dash 10 AN line. On a 318 I would return the oil in to the front cover.

The turbocharger bearing is fed pressurized engine oil from the oil system with a small oil line (dash 4) and is metered with an orifice. Usually about a .025 to .045 hole. The oil feeds the bearings & cools the shaft assembly. The very high shaft speed tends to whip the oil in to foam, which is the reason for the large return line.

Water cooled units have a water passage in the center section as well as the oil feed to the bearings. Water cooling can help with bearing life, especially in passenger cars that get shut off after a hard run with no cool down for the turbocharger.

B.
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The reason for the lower temps are to deter Detonation. Alot of guys even use Ice Boxes and their intake air temps are in the 50* range, some even lower. The cooler the better. More Heat = Detonation Problems and less aggressive timing = Less Power

On mine I am running 2 Air to Water Intercoolers, Heat Exchanger with 2 10" Fans & a Pump to Circulate the Coolant through this stand alone system. Also Meth Injection. Do I need all of it? No but why not?

The roots style blowers that I have seen cruzing the streets have no more than 7-10PSI Boost when it comes to pump fuel and hardly any of those guys even drive their cars. They can't run any more because of Detonation. Run Race Fuel. Different Story. Most of these guys Idle their cars around to look cool
and only free revv their engines to hear the whistle and hardly ever revv them up in gear to get into boost. Looks cool but what a waste. Build it Drive it is my motto.
 
When you say into the front cover you mean the timing cover, i would have to drill and tap for that since i have no type of holes.. Thanks for the awesome pictures mad dart... aww man you had to modify that beautiful pan. Id be pissed/sad lol.. thanks for the very helpful information guys. What type of blow through carbs are you guys using? Did you make your own? And if you did where did you buy the kit/whatever it is needed to do it? Thanks ....... 7 duce
 
7duce swinger said:
When you say into the front cover you mean the timing cover, i would have to drill and tap for that since i have no type of holes.. Thanks for the awesome pictures mad dart... aww man you had to modify that beautiful pan. Id be pissed/sad lol.. thanks for the very helpful information guys. What type of blow through carbs are you guys using? Did you make your own? And if you did where did you buy the kit/whatever it is needed to do it? Thanks ....... 7 duce
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No Carb, I am EFI using MSX3. When you use a Milodon pan on a Small Block you either need to put a notch in the K Frame or notch the pan. I decided to notch the pan on this one since I had to modify the pan for the Drains.

If you are running 1 Turbo you may be able to get away with Drilling and Tapping a fuel pump block off plate since you will need a good Electronic Fuel Pump. Be carful though if the drain is not low enough and can not get rid of the oil in the turbo you risk the chance of the oil not draining properly and other problems come with that.

Link to Blow thru Carb
http://csucarbs.com


Finished Pan..............

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Hmm okay so a fuel pump block off plate can be tapped and used for the drainage.. So what if i weld the fittings in at an angle would that be ok? The finished pan looks sweet mad dart. I guess if its for a good reason then it works! Looks pretty good too.. If i plan on running twins in the future would i be able to run two lines to the fuel pump block off plate or would it be better to run it to a deep sump pan ? Or is that over kill? Thanks and great pictures.
 
7duce swinger said:
Hmm okay so a fuel pump block off plate can be tapped and used for the drainage.. So what if i weld the fittings in at an angle would that be ok? The finished pan looks sweet mad dart. I guess if its for a good reason then it works! Looks pretty good too.. If i plan on running twins in the future would i be able to run two lines to the fuel pump block off plate or would it be better to run it to a deep sump pan ? Or is that over kill? Thanks and great pictures.
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You would have a hard time putting 2 drains on the Fuel Pump Plate. Reason is the other turbo will be on the other side and it would not drain properly. You could put 1 there and then tap the other side of the timing cover. Be careful though you want to make sure they drain sufficiently. That is why I ran mine where I did, they drain very well. You don't need a Deep Sump pan. You can do the mod I did on a stock pan. Main thing is you want those drain backs at least 1" above the oil level in the pan.

Thinking about it some more, your Alternator will most likely will be in the way to drain back to the fuel pump plate. On a single set up you could get away with it and move the alternator to the other side. On a dual set up you would have the same problem so the drains where I have put mine would most likely be the easiest place to put them.
 
Okay, im thinking the best place to do it would be the pan then. At the back of the block, there is holes with fittings in them. Can i run the lines for the oil to the turbo there, or is there not enough pressure there.. Is that where you are getting your oil from?
 
7duce swinger said:
Okay, im thinking the best place to do it would be the pan then. At the back of the block, there is holes with fittings in them. Can i run the lines for the oil to the turbo there, or is there not enough pressure there.. Is that where you are getting your oil from?
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Yes that is where I get the oil to feed the turbos from. That hole I 3-way tee'd off of is the factory hole for the Oil Pressure Sending Unit. There is plenty of oil to feed the turbo's from that spot. I still run the Oil Pressure Gauge in that spot but use a Mechanical Gauge instead "Plastic Tube that gets filled with oil at start up all the way to the back of the Gauge"
 
A T72 sounds too big for my tastes especially for esentially a stock 318. I am by no means an engineer so please forgive me, but I have a little bit of real world experience. I ran a T04 Turbonetics turbo with an H3 compressor and a .68 A/R. This was on a stock 318 in a A body with a 904 trans stock converter and 3.23 gears. It ran 12.00s at 112. It had no intercooler and we ran it on race gas at 12 pounds of boost. It spooled a little lazy but once it started to spool it ramped up pretty quick. I believe that this set up is what the op is looking for. My kit was a draw through ( I know how archaic, lol) with a 750 holley and no intercooler. Obviously running a blow through would allow intercooling or even meth injection for a draw through. If you want to build a draw through carb for cheap go to the turboforums and look up the "hanger 18" carb, those mods were developed on my car. Lots of head scratching. Anyways the T04 will bolt up to the T3 flange as well as the T3/T4 hybrid which would also work but I think the T04 is a better choice from my experience.
 
Oh alright then thanks again mad dart. I have tons more questions, but i just cant think of them, from all the other stuff running through my head lol. Wait What about my cam? I have the base thumper 486/473 lift @.050 is 227 int. And 241 exh. With a 107lsa will this be a problem with the turbo, or is it just a means of power levels. Or what i mean is, will it be the defining factor of having say more hp with a turbo specific cam or not really? Also what cfm carb is a good match for one of the gt45's or one of the typhoons you mentioned? Thats it for now, thanks alot.
 
I have been running the drain lines in to the front cover for decades, on lots of systems. Never had an issue. There is plenty of room to drain back to the pan,and the chain does not mind a little extra lube.

We ran TO4's decades ago. The T70 works, and spins lower speeds to do the job. The T72 is loafing on a stock 318, unless you run 12 psi or more.

That series of islands on the compressor map represents the efficiency of the compressor. the island in the center is the highest efficiency, and should be your target when choosing a unit for any application. The "sweet spot" covers a range of conditions that generally track for an engine if you choose the right unit. Like I said with that T72 map, you will stay in the high efficiency area from 6psi to 24psi.

The more efficient the compressor is the less it heats the air. Running to the right side of the islands (the choke area) makes for very hot discharge air. It also bogs the shaft speed down, which slows the exhaust flow down.

The surge line is just what it indicates. Working past the surge line will cause the turbine to surge, and can cause mechanical damage as well as make it run like crap.

Operating anywhere within the islands is ok, but the best plan is to pick a compressor that most closely matches the engine needs.

Hybrid assemblies are not new. We were using them in 1975 on aircooled VW engines. They are simply the result of choosing the compressor that has the best match to the engine, then sizing the hot side to provide the performance in the proper range. A bigger compressor (T4) on a smaller hot side (T3) gives more airflow at lower engine speed & displacement. It can however restrict exhaust flow at higher RPM, and you wind up relying on your wastegate for a significant amount of exhaust flow.

You can't select a turbocharger based on pictures, case polish, or the "horsepower claims" from an E-bay auction. Sure you can put something together, it may even seem to work well. You will never know how much performance you left on the table.

B.
 
Well i need to first get everything mocked up, then i will see where the best position for the oil lines will be. What i asked was do i need a cam grounded for turbo use? Or is it not something i need to worry aabout right now? thanks turbodart 68, im still in the planning stages ( will be for a while). So i have much to research and research and learn about.
 
Here ill help you out Here's a simple setup this should give you a head start
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67Dart273 said:
srixon, what are those manifolds?
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Don't quote me on it but I think those are ram or Dakota manifolds this isn't mine. These photos came out of my personal collection of photos I beleave I got them from a member on the turbo forums im planning on turbo my ram 2500 in the near future
 
Those exhaust manifolds are:

Dorman 674-270 & 674-271
Mopar 53010187 & 53010188

They fit well in the A body.

B.
 
how is there gonna be an intercooler setup on that? or is there gonna be? i assume without an intercooler he would need a water/meth set up?
 
One quick question... On the bottom of the block both sides, there are fittings, what are they for?? Do they lead into water or oil?? If they lead into an oil passage can i run the oildrain lines there?
 
I'm not sure on the plugs but from my limited experience my own personal build THE Drain line HAS TO BEABLE TO FLOW AS MUCH OIL AS POSSIBLE if not you will push oil into the turbo!!! I had a 8an line which is 1/2 and that wasn't enough I ended up putting a 10an or 9/16 line and haven't seen one drop of oil or any sign of smoke also I would advise on using a 1/2 threaded fitting
You can try it how ever you want its your build but if you want to save yourself alot of headache down the line do it this way
 
7 deuce:

You really want to use the front cover. The return must be above the liquid level in the pan, or it will back up the drain & push oil in to the turbine as said above.

While it was only conjecture, we always felt the action of the timing chain helped to break up any oil foam. Never had the time or funding to put a window in a front cover to prove it.

One thing that we did prove repeatedly is that the aluminum front cover is a good oil cooler. Mopar never discussed this, but on B-O-P engines it is part of the engineering. The front cover is cooled with the coldest water in the system, straight from the "cold" side of the radiator. It has a lot of surface area, and is not very thick.

Splashing oil over the back side of that cover cools it down (or warms it to water temp) and there is a lot of area inside that cover.

B.
 
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