No fire - Please help

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dkbug

dkbug

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Not getting fire and I can not figure out why. Before I decided to add the electronic ignition, I could not get my points system to work either. I figure on the points system that my distributor was not any good, resulting in me buying the electronic ignition kit from summit.

I was not sure about everything you guys needed to know so I got as much as I could.
Let me know what you guys think because I am at a dead end.

Units: Volts (v)
Battery: 12.19v

Ballast resistor
Ignition switch side: 11.32v
Ignition control side: 10.81v

Ignition Switch
Red Wire: 11.88v
Blue Wire: 11.80v
Brown Wire: 11.26v
Black Wire: 11.85v
Yellow Wire: 9.8v (When turning the motor over)

Distributor wires
Black/Yellow? - 0v
Brown/white - .11V
 
Be certain it's wired right. You may not have gotten the coil bypass wire for start in the mix. Originally, most these the ign switch RUN wire goes DEAD during cranking. The only ignition power is the (sometimes brown) bypass wire, or IGN2. Check with a light or meter at the coil + You should get at least 10.5V or higher "when cranking" at that point

Another "quick way" around the above is to simply run a clip lead from battery to coil + and see if it starts / has fire. Don't leave that hooked up any longer than necessary to test.

Might be distributor pickup gap. Check with a non magnetic .009" (inches not metric) feeler. Oh ' REallys had these

With key "in run" measure coil + and - voltage. Coil + will be anywhere from 5--6 V or a bit higher. If it's quite high, near 12V either the coil is not drawing current, or you have it wired wrong or not getting "run" voltage.

Next measure coil -- Should be quite low, perhaps less than 1/2 volt

Temporarily remove tach if equipped, and make sure the radio suppressor if used is on the coil POS and not the NEG.

Always suspect "everything." Maybe you damaged the coil wire when you pulled it out, so check for spark with a screwdriver or probe that is grounded to the block. Hold the probe up in the coil tower and crank
 
If you don't have a non magnetic feeler gauge handy, take a regular piece of printer paper and fold it in fourths. That will be about .008"-.010" which will work fine.
 
Will the wiring diagram for the summit ignition control module reflect the wiring for a stock A-body?

I have been having problems with the wiring in this car since I got it. I went through all the wiring and evidently I have messed something up.

Will someone post up a detailed diagram for the ignition system. I need colors and locations all the way from the ignition switch to the coil to the ignition control module.


Thanks in advance,
Dakota
 
67Dart273 said:
Be certain it's wired right. You may not have gotten the coil bypass wire for start in the mix. Originally, most these the ign switch RUN wire goes DEAD during cranking. The only ignition power is the (sometimes brown) bypass wire, or IGN2. Check with a light or meter at the coil + You should get at least 10.5V or higher "when cranking" at that point

Another "quick way" around the above is to simply run a clip lead from battery to coil + and see if it starts / has fire. Don't leave that hooked up any longer than necessary to test.

Might be distributor pickup gap. Check with a non magnetic .009" (inches not metric) feeler. Oh ' REallys had these

With key "in run" measure coil + and - voltage. Coil + will be anywhere from 5--6 V or a bit higher. If it's quite high, near 12V either the coil is not drawing current, or you have it wired wrong or not getting "run" voltage.

Next measure coil -- Should be quite low, perhaps less than 1/2 volt

Temporarily remove tach if equipped, and make sure the radio suppressor if used is on the coil POS and not the NEG.

Always suspect "everything." Maybe you damaged the coil wire when you pulled it out, so check for spark with a screwdriver or probe that is grounded to the block. Hold the probe up in the coil tower and crank
Click to expand...

Do this first, then go from there.
 
dkbug said:
Will the wiring diagram for the summit ignition control module reflect the wiring for a stock A-body?

I have been having problems with the wiring in this car since I got it. I went through all the wiring and evidently I have messed something up.

Will someone post up a detailed diagram for the ignition system. I need colors and locations all the way from the ignition switch to the coil to the ignition control module.


Thanks in advance,
Dakota
Click to expand...

Uh.............we sorta need to know "whut it is" that you are working on, and even then the colors change over the years. You can download free service manuals here

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088617

and more here.........Also from the site below are somewhat simplified wiring diagrams. "Your year" is going to show points however

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Post a link to the Summit kit. Electrically you leave the ballast hooked up "as is" and hook the new wire from the power to the ECU to the "key" side of the ballast. I realize this is not physically exact, as the kit might be geared a bit different.

Without detailing how you did this and photos, almost impossible to figure out "what you did"

ANOTHER little tidbit...........The ECU (and the voltage regulator) MUST be grounded. MUST
 
1970 dodge dart swinger. All grounds have been redone. I will try to snag some pictures tonight. I guess I am more after pictures or diagrams of the right way it should be done.
 
dkbug said:
1970 dodge dart swinger. All grounds have been redone. I will try to snag some pictures tonight. I guess I am more after pictures or diagrams of the right way it should be done.
Click to expand...

As I said post a link to the Summit kit. The destructions may have changed over the years. I can tell you what they "used" to be
 
OK guys, bare with me, here is the kit.
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850003


I did what you guys said by hard wiring the coil to turn it over and test spark.

I ran a jumper from the battery to the coil and still no spark. I am testing spark from a spark tester.

When I get the voltage on the positive side of the coil mention in my first post, I have 2.08v on the negative post of the coil. When I hard wire the coil and turn it over, the negative side of the coil does not alternate between positive and negative.

I have .009" clearance between the pickup coil and the trigger in the distributor.

I triple checked the grounds at the ecu and put some dielectric grease at the connections for safe purposes.
 
As mentioned in 67dart273's post about the wires going dead once cranking, I bypassed this situation by keeping the key in the run position and using a remote starter.
 
The summit mopar knockoff kits are garbage. Those blue China boxes they come with made it into two of my trash cans before I grabbed an old rusted Oem box out of the parts pile and it fired up. The next step is to realize the mopar electronic ignition is also crap, and put an msd or similar box on it. you completely bypass and disregard the terrible, usually hacked up, oem ignition. Youd be miles ahead if u went with a streetfire msd, or even the silver msd summit box. Especially with existing wiring issues
 
Starting to sound like you just plain have something defective. Try this. Unhook the neg coil wire. You should now have nothing going to the coil NEG. Turn the key on. Check coil voltage. Should be 12V on both coil neg and coil pos

Now take a clip lead and ground / unground the coil NEG terminal. You should see small sparks coming from that terminal as you touch / untouch it. Now take your coil wire and see if you have any spark. It is likely not really intense, but you should have some



Here is the simplified diagram from the destructions

Now, there are ONLY 4 wires "that are different"

1....and 2....The two distributor pickup wires from the box to the distributor

3.....The black wire from the box to coil NEG, which triggers the coil, just like the points did

4....The blue POWER WIRE from the box to the bottom of the ballast

ALL THE REST is unchanged factory wiring!!!! In fact, if you carry your old points distributor, and the ECU goes bad, all you need to do to get going is to unplug the box, put the old distributor back in, and hook up the points wire!!!

Also try this. I can never remember which of the two distributor wires, so try both: Turn key to "run" and get the coil wire placed to look for a spark. Unplug the distributor connector and take the "box" side (harness side) connector in hand. Ground first one terminal of the plug and then the other. One or the other should produce a spark.

Also, take your multimeter and hook it to the two distributor terminals. Put the meter on low AC volts. That's right, AC. Crank the engine, the distributor should generate about 1V AC
 

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67Dart273 said:
Starting to sound like you just plain have something defective. Try this. Unhook the neg coil wire. You should now have nothing going to the coil NEG. Turn the key on. Check coil voltage. Should be 12V on both coil neg and coil pos

Now take a clip lead and ground / unground the coil NEG terminal. You should see small sparks coming from that terminal as you touch / untouch it. Now take your coil wire and see if you have any spark. It is likely not really intense, but you should have some



Here is the simplified diagram from the destructions
Click to expand...


Thanks for all your help and thanks for being patient.

I will check this as soon as I get relieved from work.

Now that I am thinking further into the problem, I am starting to think more and more that it is my wiring before the ballast and here is why I say this. You said before that I should be getting around 6v at the coil positive. I am getting upwards of 11v. Now if I am getting 11v at the coil positive, that means that the wires coming from the ballast have an intercepted 11v source somewhere, right? According to a 1970 wiring diagram from a chiltons manual that is probably from the 70's :), the stock wiring diagram for a 73 dart that has electronic ignition looks real similar to what I am doing here with mine. There are two wires that come from the ignition switch that run to the ballast, from the ballast to the coil and ignition control module. Does anyone know what color those two wires would be on a 1970 swinger, assuming they are not the same between 1970 and 1973.

On my setup, I basically followed the diagram directly out of the book. I will upload a picture of it here in a second.
 
That is basically the exact diagram i followed. I think I have my resistor hooked up wrong. I will fix this tonight and let you guys know what happened.

Thanks!
 
67dart273,

I followed that wiring diagram directly. Where the start wire comes in, would I not need a diode there to resist the voltage coming back from the run wire? The motor is turning over in both the start and run position.

I am going to hook up a momentary switch in the mean time to stop the voltage from when I am starting the car.

Let me know,

Thanks
 
I am now getting 7.02v on the coil pos and 1.32v on the neg. I have all the wiring exactly as it shows on that diagram plus a toggle on the start wire to prevent voltage in the run position.
 
That is not really necessary. Many have bypassed those with no diode, although that is a good idea IF you use a heavy enough diode.

However I'm a bit lost.....did you get spark by jumpering 12V direct to the coil? If not you need to figure out that much of the problem and not worry for now about start / run
 
I did get spark by putting 12v straight to the coil. Very weak spark, but spark. Making me think it is the coil.

When you say to bypass it, how do I go about that if the ignition wire is what provides the voltage to the coil when turning the motor over?

I went and bought a new coil that isn't the stock type.
 
SUCCESS!!!!! I have fire, and it runs!!! However..... I always have to have a however.... I am still stuck on the run wire vs the start wire. The starter relay is engaging in both the start and run positions. Help.
 
Ok you have FOUR outputs of the switch these screenshots are out of the '70 Dart/ Challenger manual, page 8-89 and 8-99

The top photo is the ign switch connector. You can look this up and follow them out. The important ones for this problem

BOTTOM.....S2-18Y, which means START circuit wire no2 and it's size number 18 and YELLOW in color. This only goes ONE place.....through the bulkhead connector and to the starter relay. IT MUST NOT be connected to anything else

THIRD from bottom.....J2-16 DBL. This is the ignition run wire, also called "IGN 1" and is ONLY on when the key is in "run"

FOURTH from bottom....J3-14BR This is the "start bypass" also known as "IGN 2" It is ONLY hot in start and THIS IS the wire you want connected to the dark blue, above

============================

Now look at the bottom diagram, page 8-89 out of that manual Find the ballast over bottom right. On the right hand side of the ballast find wire J2A-16DBL. Follow it up and to the left to the "N" terminal which is the bulkhead connector. This is the "run" wire coming into the bay from the ign sw.

On the left side of the ballast find J2-14BR. This is the "ignition bypass" or IGN2. It is coming out of the bulkhead connector terminal "J" and that is the ONLY connection to that bypass circuit.

THAT MUCH of the wiring can actually be left alone. What is ADDED is the power wire coming from the ECU which electrically hooks to the DBL at the right side of the ballast.

This should result in powering the box, and at the coil POS you should end up with "close to" same as battery in "start" about 10.5V or more when cranking

In run, coil POS will vary all the way from say, 6 to about 11V This is because of changes in coil load and changes in the ballast resistor temperature.
 

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BROWN WIRE SHITTTTTTTTTTT. I used the yellow. Problem solved.

By the way it was the brand new out of the box summit Ignition module that was the problem. I put a stock one back in and it runs fine.

Thanks for all the help guys,
Dakota
 
By the way, we really need a sticky on the electrical forum on how to convert points to an electronic system. If I had half the information I got from you guys in the beginning, I wouldn't have had to start a new thread.
 
dkbug said:
By the way, we really need a sticky on the electrical forum on how to convert points to an electronic system. If I had half the information I got from you guys in the beginning, I wouldn't have had to start a new thread.
Click to expand...

I sell the entire electronic system in HEI form, modded distributor and all here.

www.classichei.com
 
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