Oil additives

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RustyRatRod said:
I have a local friend who actually know the Lucas guy. I forget what he said his first name was. But he and a friend broached the oil business and they started finding out that all of the Lucas products were snake oil. All of them. That was surprising to me, because I've always been told and thought Lucas was one of the decent lines out there.
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I met Forrest and Charlotte Lucas at Woodburn Dragstrip back when Morgan was running an alcohol digger before he went to the fuel car.

Two incredibly nice people.
 
Lake Speed Jr. comes across as a snake oil salesman in that video, yet his intent is the exact opposite
I am getting ready to break in a flat tappet camshaft and was going to post a question here about using Vizard's Oil Extreme for the break-in. After watching that video, I think I will save the money
 
When I worked for a Cat dealership, we sold SOS (scheduled oil sampling) kits/program. You took a sample approx 150 ml and sent in to our lab for analysis. Wasn't cheap, but you're dealing with million dollar machines. You could do the same for any engines.
So I've run Shell Rotella 15/40 for years with the Lucas breakin additive. No issues over 12 years.
What's the alternative? Is there a base oil out there that has the proper amount of zinc/zddp that requires no additive?
 
4eighteener said:
Lake Speed Jr. comes across as a snake oil salesman in that video, yet his intent is the exact opposite
I am getting ready to break in a flat tappet camshaft and was going to post a question here about using Vizard's Oil Extreme for the break-in. After watching that video, I think I will save the money
Click to expand...
I now wonder if some of the stuff used only for engine break in is fine, because it seems like a grey area to me. You are are not running it long term, so maybe by chance it's fine for just break in for that short period of time. Maybe there is an article or study out there about it, testing the products for just that use only.
 
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4spdragtop said:
When I worked for a Cat dealership, we sold SOS (scheduled oil sampling) kits/program. You took a sample approx 150 ml and sent in to our lab for analysis. Wasn't cheap, but you're dealing with million dollar machines. You could do the same for any engines.
So I've run Shell Rotella 15/40 for years with the Lucas breakin additive. No issues over 12 years.
What's the alternative? Is there a base oil out there that has the proper amount of zinc/zddp that requires no additive?
Click to expand...


There are no base oils good enough to do the job on their own. That’s why they have additives.

It’s kind of a crappy deal because you are dealing with the API who sets the parameters for oil.

There are certain race engine oils out there that will pass the API parameters and it’s still a racing oil.

Last time I looked the cost per quart was over 20 bucks a quart.

I just bought some gear oil and it was 23 bucks a quart.

I paid with a smile because 4.88’s in a street driven axle needs the best oil you can get. So I suck it up.

I’m half scared to see what it’s going to cost me for engine oil. I’m betting it’s 23 dollars or more per quart.
 
Quickly scanned through this thread but a few thoughts....

First of all nothing wrong with Lucas oils especially their straight 30W break in or hot rod lines with high zinc.. In fact my favorite assembly lube is their ultra gooey stabilizer stuff --been using it for 30yrs now.

Second LS JR is a content creator in my eyes..nothing more nothing less. Remember that video where they pulled his Daddy's Nascar engine out of retirement and put it on the dyno with a dyno sheet that showed something like 700hp from 1989 or something? And then they were all scratching their heads when it made something like 495hp. And then they went full on modern technology rebuild to make 770 or so? I don't remember the details but I do remember the fact that they couldn't wrap their brains around the fact that they had their dyno jacked up in the day to make them feel better--which is what it boiled down to. Then they felt like heroes after dumping a ton of $$$ and effort to make it produce what they claimed back in the day. LOL Creator Content. But hey I watched it didn't I? J.Rob
 
I must agree with the Oil Geek, but can't stand his presentation style. As an engine oil formulation chemist with Chevron for 18 years, and may years doing the same for other companies, I do understand oils and oil formulations. For background, ASTM sets the requirements for automotive engine oils, ASTM D4485 Standard Specification for Active API Service Category Engine Oils. The requirements include 6 engine tests measuring oil oxidation, sludge and wear, fuel economy, and timing chain wear. The cost for running and passing all these test requirements is well over $1 million per engine oil formulation. On top of this are at least 10 laboratory tests. And then engine manufacturers often have additional criteria and tests that are needed to meet Factory Fill performance such as GM Dexos which requires additional performance at high engine oils temperatures. Think 64 hours running at 300°F oil temp and that will give you an idea of the severity of the testing.
You then apply for an American Petroleum Institute (API) license which allows you to put the latest engine oil category label on your bottle, but they monitor your product with periodic sampling to be sure you are not skimping on the formulation.

But this gets you an oil that is suited for a modern engine (2010 and newer, say) and not well suited for an old engine with a slider follower camshaft. For my older cars, I use Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil such as Delo 400 or Shell Rotella T SAE 15W-40. It has sufficient zinc to protect cams and has more dispersant and detergent to keep a gasoline engine exceptionally clean.

I should criticize the Oil Geek's selection of PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil for the blend testing as PAO in actual engine oil formulations requires another blend component to help additives dissolve in the PAO as it is a lousy solvent whereas conventional base oils are fine solvents for additives. So even the Oil Geek can misrepresent reality.

There are a number of oils marketed for older cars which contain higher Zinc content. They should work fine if from a major oil marketer, but they are not covered by API classification requirements so there are no industry standards for these oils. More risky, so stick with a company that will stand behind their product. This is one reason I use HD Diesel engine oil as it is produced to API requirements and backed by major oil companies. SAE 15W-40 works in older engines too and is just slightly more viscous than SAE 10W-30 which is what most engines used back in the day. You can get HDDEO in 10W-30, but it is usually a special-order item from an oil marketer and not a retail store.
 
RLF Cuda said:
I must agree with the Oil Geek, but can't stand his presentation style. As an engine oil formulation chemist with Chevron for 18 years, and may years doing the same for other companies, I do understand oils and oil formulations. For background, ASTM sets the requirements for automotive engine oils, ASTM D4485 Standard Specification for Active API Service Category Engine Oils. The requirements include 6 engine tests measuring oil oxidation, sludge and wear, fuel economy, and timing chain wear. The cost for running and passing all these test requirements is well over $1 million per engine oil formulation. On top of this are at least 10 laboratory tests. And then engine manufacturers often have additional criteria and tests that are needed to meet Factory Fill performance such as GM Dexos which requires additional performance at high engine oils temperatures. Think 64 hours running at 300°F oil temp and that will give you an idea of the severity of the testing.
You then apply for an American Petroleum Institute (API) license which allows you to put the latest engine oil category label on your bottle, but they monitor your product with periodic sampling to be sure you are not skimping on the formulation.

But this gets you an oil that is suited for a modern engine (2010 and newer, say) and not well suited for an old engine with a slider follower camshaft. For my older cars, I use Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil such as Delo 400 or Shell Rotella T SAE 15W-40. It has sufficient zinc to protect cams and has more dispersant and detergent to keep a gasoline engine exceptionally clean.

I should criticize the Oil Geek's selection of PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil for the blend testing as PAO in actual engine oil formulations requires another blend component to help additives dissolve in the PAO as it is a lousy solvent whereas conventional base oils are fine solvents for additives. So even the Oil Geek can misrepresent reality.

There are a number of oils marketed for older cars which contain higher Zinc content. They should work fine if from a major oil marketer, but they are not covered by API classification requirements so there are no industry standards for these oils. More risky, so stick with a company that will stand behind their product. This is one reason I use HD Diesel engine oil as it is produced to API requirements and backed by major oil companies. SAE 15W-40 works in older engines too and is just slightly more viscous than SAE 10W-30 which is what most engines used back in the day. You can get HDDEO in 10W-30, but it is usually a special-order item from an oil marketer and not a retail store.
Click to expand...

Are there any straight PAO oils on the market any more??

IIRC (and I may not be) Red Line was a straight PAO. Maybe it still is.

I forget the limits of a Straight PAO base oil but again IIRC there are some different obstacles to overcome using that base oil.
 
mopar head said:
Yeah, their fuel carb/injector cleaner was good stuff.
You wouldn`t notice any change until the next tank full.
IMO it worked.
Click to expand...
from the carb to the tail pipe. The tail pipes on my 73 W200 were clean after using it. I imagine the valves and pistons were cleaned up a little to.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I met Forrest and Charlotte Lucas at Woodburn Dragstrip back when Morgan was running an alcohol digger before he went to the fuel car.

Two incredibly nice people.
Click to expand...
Yeah he said the same thing, but said they found out through lab work their stuff was worthless. I have a tough time buying that, when I've seen evidence to the contrary.
 
RAMM said:
Quickly scanned through this thread but a few thoughts....

First of all nothing wrong with Lucas oils especially their straight 30W break in or hot rod lines with high zinc.. In fact my favorite assembly lube is their ultra gooey stabilizer stuff --been using it for 30yrs now.

Second LS JR is a content creator in my eyes..nothing more nothing less. Remember that video where they pulled his Daddy's Nascar engine out of retirement and put it on the dyno with a dyno sheet that showed something like 700hp from 1989 or something? And then they were all scratching their heads when it made something like 495hp. And then they went full on modern technology rebuild to make 770 or so? I don't remember the details but I do remember the fact that they couldn't wrap their brains around the fact that they had their dyno jacked up in the day to make them feel better--which is what it boiled down to. Then they felt like heroes after dumping a ton of $$$ and effort to make it produce what they claimed back in the day. LOL Creator Content. But hey I watched it didn't I? J.Rob
Click to expand...
That's the impression I get from the actual evidence from using Lucas products. They work. I don't know what all kind of analysis my friend did. I can ask.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Yeah he said the same thing, but said they found out through lab work their stuff was worthless. I have a tough time buying that, when I've seen evidence to the contrary.
Click to expand...


I’ve used some Lucas stuff. It’s good stuff but it’s certainly not top shelf oils.

I think LS jr. was testing just the additives and not the oil.

I’m pretty sure that I’m almost 100% against any additives. The only exception is for the additive for limited slip diffs.

An additive like that has a purpose. Just adding something to oil to try an upgrade it is a fools paradise.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ve used some Lucas stuff. It’s good stuff but it’s certainly not top shelf oils.

I think LS jr. was testing just the additives and not the oil.

I’m pretty sure that I’m almost 100% against any additives. The only exception is for the additive for limited slip diffs.

An additive like that has a purpose. Just adding something to oil to try an upgrade it is a fools paradise.
Click to expand...
So you think ZDDP additive is snake oil then.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ve used some Lucas stuff. It’s good stuff but it’s certainly not top shelf oils.

I think LS jr. was testing just the additives and not the oil.

I’m pretty sure that I’m almost 100% against any additives. The only exception is for the additive for limited slip diffs.

An additive like that has a purpose. Just adding something to oil to try an upgrade it is a fools paradise.
Click to expand...
I have used Ford type "F" transmission fluid in my 727's for years without issues. It has an additive. Ford had a "BETTER IDEA" with that.
 
RLF Cuda said:
I must agree with the Oil Geek, but can't stand his presentation style. As an engine oil formulation chemist with Chevron for 18 years, and may years doing the same for other companies, I do understand oils and oil formulations. For background, ASTM sets the requirements for automotive engine oils, ASTM D4485 Standard Specification for Active API Service Category Engine Oils. The requirements include 6 engine tests measuring oil oxidation, sludge and wear, fuel economy, and timing chain wear. The cost for running and passing all these test requirements is well over $1 million per engine oil formulation. On top of this are at least 10 laboratory tests. And then engine manufacturers often have additional criteria and tests that are needed to meet Factory Fill performance such as GM Dexos which requires additional performance at high engine oils temperatures. Think 64 hours running at 300°F oil temp and that will give you an idea of the severity of the testing.
You then apply for an American Petroleum Institute (API) license which allows you to put the latest engine oil category label on your bottle, but they monitor your product with periodic sampling to be sure you are not skimping on the formulation.

But this gets you an oil that is suited for a modern engine (2010 and newer, say) and not well suited for an old engine with a slider follower camshaft. For my older cars, I use Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil such as Delo 400 or Shell Rotella T SAE 15W-40. It has sufficient zinc to protect cams and has more dispersant and detergent to keep a gasoline engine exceptionally clean.

I should criticize the Oil Geek's selection of PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil for the blend testing as PAO in actual engine oil formulations requires another blend component to help additives dissolve in the PAO as it is a lousy solvent whereas conventional base oils are fine solvents for additives. So even the Oil Geek can misrepresent reality.

There are a number of oils marketed for older cars which contain higher Zinc content. They should work fine if from a major oil marketer, but they are not covered by API classification requirements so there are no industry standards for these oils. More risky, so stick with a company that will stand behind their product. This is one reason I use HD Diesel engine oil as it is produced to API requirements and backed by major oil companies. SAE 15W-40 works in older engines too and is just slightly more viscous than SAE 10W-30 which is what most engines used back in the day. You can get HDDEO in 10W-30, but it is usually a special-order item from an oil marketer and not a retail store.
Click to expand...
I've been using straight Valvoline racing oil since 1977, zero failure.
A jug of STP and standard 10/30 in my 73 w200. 120,000 miles and counting don't burn one drop of oil. zero failure.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
If you are adding it to an oil that is already blended then yes, it’s snake oil at that point.
Click to expand...
Even if the oil is low in ZDDP? I agree that it changes the oil. But I've been running it now close to two years and no flat lobes yet.
 
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