Performance distributor gear installation

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I think the issue is clearly outlined in Australia. A proper performance distributor gear is available. A cheap plastic gear is also available.

The same situation WAS true in the USA and Charlie has commented about ordering metal gears with Echlin part numbers and receiving plastic ones in their stead. The auto enthusiasts out of a population perhaps one twelfth of the USA collectively sustain a proper choice.

We can now rationalize a lack of proper parts all we want -- we didn't really need those proper gears that had been supplied for racers for many decades anyways. We can then critique the elaborate procedures needed to try to compensate for want of spending perhaps an extra $30 up front and simply tell people to probably invest ten times that amount for a DIS setup.

Shame on us.
 
Damn, Kevin. You still don't get it. A high dollar, high effort, cure is not necessary for a problem that does not exist. If any more then the plastic gear is required, then the cure is DIS, not a metal gear. As for spark scatter, there will be more scatter due to a streched timing chain, or foer and aft cam movement, then from a nylon dist gear.
 
Kevin Johnson said:
I think the issue is clearly outlined in Australia. A proper performance distributor gear is available. A cheap plastic gear is also available.

The same situation WAS true in the USA and Charlie has commented about ordering metal gears with Echlin part numbers and receiving plastic ones in their stead. .
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The Ausie gear is bronze, the Echlin gear was steel/iron. The Aussie gear is for the "Hemi" six, which is an entirely different motor, then the slant six. The Aussie gear may/may not work on the slant six. Do we know if there is a compatability problem with the Bronze gear on a slant cam? Most bronze gears were/are made for use on roller cams, because the steel/iron gears are not compatible, with these cams.
(Also most cars running roller cams and bronze gears, also drive the oil pump with the same gear. This puts MUCH more load on the gears, then the distributer).

As for the gears I ordered, I did get one, many years ago. It is still in my "go to the track, spare parts box". I never had a need for it.

This is the end of my comments on the subject. You have stated your position, and I have stated mine. Now it is up to the readers to make their own decision.
 
Fishthatkills said:
WHAT? All I can say is Analysis paralysis! Some live to argue and some argue to live!

John D. Beckerley
Austin, Texas
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And some can't survive psychologically unless they're doing both!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad

My position is.
This is a plastic drive gear for god sake, figure it out and get on with it. I've seen less analysis on complicated subjects such as strokers.
 
No, the spark scatter problem does exist and this is exactly why the metal gears were produced in the first place. Let's not try to rewrite history. I purchased new and used parts to check this out and then measured them carefully so it is not speculation: consistent wear marks on an actual slant six plastic distributor gear that walk up and down the face are not caused by chain lash or cam walk though each of those can also cause spark scatter by a different means.

High aeration levels of oil in an accelerating engine that load and unload a pump driven off of the cam gear can also cause spark scatter.

Building a proper high performance engine is an exercise in a collection of tasks that seek to improve or optimize the system.

Buying a metal distributor gear for $45 Australian does not seem to me like a high dollar, high effort exercise. I am not blaming you in particular -- you agreed with this and attempted to use the correct metal distributor gears in your distributors but they became unavailable under US parts lists.

As for the gears I ordered, I did get one, many years ago. It is still in my "go to the track, spare parts box". I never had a need for it.
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But you did try to order more. They were no longer available.


Putting in a totally different DIS system is an option but certainly is high dollar and high effort. I don't think the withdrawal of metal distributor gears from the US market happened because people switched en masse to DIS. I think it happened because people were unwilling to spend an extra $20 or $30 dollars to buy a quality part.

The manufacturers also responded to this market pressure via the deterioration of the quality of the plastic gear itself. You're not taking this deterioration into account -- the situation with the plastic gear is just getting progressively worse, not staying the same. Remember that I have now compared NOS plastic gears and current gears made over decades and the trend is clear.
 
demon seed said:
And some can't survive psychologically unless they're doing both!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad

My position is.
This is a plastic drive gear for god sake, figure it out and get on with it. I've seen less analysis on complicated subjects such as strokers.
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Yes, and you have seen the consequences of ignoring third order harmonics on same.

Some people make the effort to figure these things out. Some people don't. They coast on the efforts of others.
 
slantsixdan said:
Let the record show that Mr. Johnson has been sanctioned (and repeatedly spanked) on slantsix.org for attempting to pass off as fact what are actually guesses, fantasies, assumptions, hallucinations, misinterpretations, and completely incorrect statements regarding slant-6 distributor and oil pump drive pinions, and for behaving inappropriately towards other board members including moderators and administrators.

Let the record also show that there is no double-pinned slant-6 distributor drive pinion and never has been, nor is one pictured in the airbrushed illustration (not photo) of a slant-6 engine Mr. Johnson thinks he refers to.

He may have some good ideas and valid suggestions, but some of you may want to take him with a grain of salt.

That's all.
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Dan,
This is not .org. We can make up our own minds here whether this is good info or bad info.There is no reason for you to slander the guy on this site.This isnt that kind of site.So far he has represented himself in a decent,professional manner.What he has to say may prove to be of importance to someone here. Lets just leave it at that.
 
Quote: Some people make the effort to figure these things out. Some people don't. They coast on the efforts of others.

You're forgeting those of us that prefer to "get to the point" after analyising the problem then issuing the statement. Also, "third order harmonics", where did that come from, I'm curious to see the vibration analysis program that was used to determine that a third order even exists and the theory of the causes of this condition.
 
Here is the link for the slant six bronze distributor gear:

http://www.pentastarparts.com.au/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=612

I believe that someone made the effort to ask whether this Bosch unit would work and the response was the shaft diameter difference which actual measurement has proved to be far less than assumed. This information disappeared in a thread that was placed under "moderator review" on dot org. This should still be accessible to a moderator there.
 
demon seed said:
Quote: Some people make the effort to figure these things out. Some people don't. They coast on the efforts of others.

You're forgeting those of us that prefer to "get to the point" after analyising the problem then issuing the statement. Also, "third order harmonics", where did that come from, I'm curious to see the vibration analysis program that was used to determine that a third order even exists and the theory of the causes of this condition.
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Do some research on the war effort to increase the reliability of straight six engines.

Do some research on the very early Datsun 240Z engines imported into the USA and why their crankshafts failed.

Do some research into straight six Jag engines and why there was a problem at just under 6000 rpm with harmonics -- I believe it also affected fuel in the SUs.
 
I have given away all the parts I purchased to make the measurements to slant six owners. I did not want them to go to waste sitting on my shelf.

In the meantime, Charlie has lent me two 225 blocks and I have made some additional measurements. The blueprint view of a 1963 170 that was presented to Allpar.com by Willem Weertman and the 1960 cross sectional pictures were not 100% useful until error correction factors for the vertical and horizontal aspects could be determined (this is a problem even when scanning items).

With the blocks at hand, it can be seen that the outer limit of the bore hole diameter for the oil pump drive tangentially intersects the base circle for the camshaft, which makes sense (the teeth for the cam gear comprising most of the difference between the base circle and the cam journal OD). The oil pump drive shaft enters the block parallel to the plane defined by the oil pan rail.

The distributor shaft and gear assembly enters the block at approximately a 15.5 degree angle from the vertical. When the assembly is superimposed onto the blueprint using the cam major axis as its reference point and axis of rotation, the plane bisecting the oil galley and parallel to the oil pan rail meets the midpoint of the distributor gear OD cylinder surface as determined in previous measurements in this thread. This appears to be a confirmation of the proper distance to set the depth of the drive gear.

I hope this information proves useful to someone. I will put up a link of the drawing. I would upload it here but the size limitation on pictures is too small to make the file useful.
 
Johnny Dart said:
Dan,
This is not .org. We can make up our own minds here whether this is good info or bad info.There is no reason for you to slander the guy on this site.This isnt that kind of site.So far he has represented himself in a decent,professional manner.What he has to say may prove to be of importance to someone here. Lets just leave it at that.
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Dan seems to be a control freak, I don't think he can help it, it's 'expert syndrome'
however..This is way to much...

Just stick the gear on there [it's square enough] and use the existing hole as a guide to drill through the other side, use washers if it has some vertical play.
Heck I've even redrilled a new hole lower as to take up a lil end play I had, I just drilled one @3 0'clock an lower than the original hole.

Say....how many gear teeth are on the distributor gear again??
Done.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
however..This is way to much...

Just stick the gear on there [it's square enough] and use the existing hole as a guide to drill through the other side, use washers if it has some vertical play.
Heck I've even redrilled a new hole lower as to take up a lil end play I had, I just drilled one @3 0'clock an lower than the original hole.

Say....how many gear teeth are on the distributor gear again??
Done.
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There are thirteen teeth. http://www.crank-scrapers.com/sl6/od_of_gear_on_vintage_mopare_rebuild.jpg

The information is useful to some, superfluous to others. I understand that. I think about things like this because it is important to me to see how an engine works as a system. You "look into" the design and begin to understand the designer.
 
Now, the really sharp people out there are going to look at the blueprint and start thinking.

They might think -- what if I removed the oil pump and distributor as driven off the cam? Far fewer problems getting blanks made. Without getting into the webbing and reducing the strength of the block you could offset bore toward the lifters for a new cam with larger journals and commensurately larger base circle for a hot cam. After all a blank is a blank. Add a tensioner for the timing chain. Degree the cam in. Strange how people think about overboring the block all the time but miss stuff like this.

Without the oil pump to worry about you could start kicking up the revs. Maybe make a special crank. Charlie showed me the video of the road race slant engine down in Argentina kicking butt at 8200 rpms. How many guys drag race at 8200rpms much less road race at those levels?
 
so it has the chevy effect of 1 tooth off, easy enough to detect.

you wanna help the slant? Design another overhead cam aluminum head like whats his face did back in the 80's
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
so it has the chevy effect of 1 tooth off, easy enough to detect.

you wanna help the slant? Design another overhead cam aluminum head like whats his face did back in the 80's
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I don't think there is any shortage of people that could design an overhead cam head for the slant in their sleep. I think what is holding that back is a bunch of people willing to pay a few thousand bucks a pop.
 
I remember the guy selling his valiant that had that overhead cam aluminum head on the 170cid. had pics too.

when I was doing slants in the 90's, that was the talk of the town in my lil circle.
 
on the pump.....you'd need a gear tooth pulley and external oil pump,fixed.

and a home made block off plate, lines to an external remote filter with some tapped an lines.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
I remember the guy selling his valiant that had that overhead cam aluminum head on the 170cid. had pics too.

when I was doing slants in the 90's, that was the talk of the town in my lil circle.
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Can you supply some more info? I would be interested in hearing more. The only overhead cam slant I ever heard of, was in one of the old Hot Rod magazines, from back in the '60's, I think. As I recall the head was not aluminum, and the cam was chain driven from the back.
PS: Who is "what's his face"?
 
Since we have so much knowledge floating around I'll pose a question I've been kicking around...

Can an electronic dizzy be replaced with a points dizzy? Will the gears be the same? I have a 81 225 in my 66. But the 81 has two wire harnesses while the 66 has one. All I want is this car to run.
 
BarracudaBrian said:
Since we have so much knowledge floating around I'll pose a question I've been kicking around...

Can an electronic dizzy be replaced with a points dizzy? Will the gears be the same? I have a 81 225 in my 66. But the 81 has two wire harnesses while the 66 has one. All I want is this car to run.
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Simple answer> YES

But the electronic ignition is so much better, and simple to do.
 
Charrlie_S said:
Can you supply some more info? I would be interested in hearing more. The only overhead cam slant I ever heard of, was in one of the old Hot Rod magazines, from back in the '60's, I think. As I recall the head was not aluminum, and the cam was chain driven from the back.
PS: Who is "what's his face"?
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I see if I can find the auto trader from '89, but I really doubt I'll find it.
Last time I saw it, my friend matt crowder had it, and that was in '94.
this car was going for about 9-10 grand, and it was just a lil valiant [65-66]
I remember he had a gear in the front, you could see in the pic, it was a larger open hood pic for the add.
He probably had 4 grand into the head, at least, the car wasn't super clean, 'I believe the price was all about the engine'.

Back then there were unknown's doing some outlandish modifications and plenty of parts/idea's and interest...these days it's limited, no one really want to dump 4-6 grand on custom cast heads, or extreme machining mod's
[like the L/gas cricket]
I remember the swedish mechanic I was aprenticing under was trying to talk me out of messing with the slant in favor of a 360, I built the HP slant anyways and got 180,000 miles out of it 'built'.
 
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