regulator question

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Sussmad

Sussmad

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I have had my 63 valiant for 3+ years. It came with electronic ignition and one of those "race only" voltage regs (P3690732). I think the regulator is intermittently out of whack-amp gauge pegs at start then settles (these electrical issues do get redundant!) My question is what does "race only" imply and should I get it out of my car. I'm definitely not racing anyone. I see that several companies carry a solid state electronic black box type look alike. I don't care about an original look though. Which way to go?
 
Two recommended part numbers are the Standard VR-128 or Echlin VR-1001

I don't understand why the 'race only' one is considered to be a problem. Several people claim to run them on the street. All regulators are "constant output" (voltage) so that descriptive terminology makes no sense. One person claims they simply need to be scraped clean and grounded, which really applies to ALL regulators

But "pegging at start" and then "settling" COULD be normal. Stick a temporary voltmeter on the battery and see what the charging voltage is doing.
 
Sorry to the OP, but on a similar note, I am starting from scratch on a complete install of harness, and a 5.7 hemi with 110 a ALT (factory). I was gonna use a old regulator, either those "race" ones from summit or my newer 67 one, or a post 73... What type are the part numbers you suggested, pre/post? And which should i use?
 
joeboy said:
Sorry to the OP, but on a similar note, I am starting from scratch on a complete install of harness, and a 5.7 hemi with 110 a ALT (factory). I was gonna use a old regulator, either those "race" ones from summit or my newer 67 one, or a post 73... What type are the part numbers you suggested, pre/post? And which should i use?
Click to expand...

Those are 69/ earlier. You could actually use them on a 70/ later by disconnecting the IGN lead to one field, and grounding it.

If you want to use 70/ later I'd just look around for a good quality "stocker" or new/ old stock.
 
I believe the race regulator regulates at a higher voltage, than stock. When racing that higher voltage is probably good for a hotter spark, but street driven bad for over charging battery, and killing bulbs.

67Dart273 recommendation: Two recommended part numbers are the Standard VR-128 or Echlin VR-1001, is the same technology, looks the same as the blue race regulator, but regulates to stock voltages.

I recently install one of the above (don’t recall which manufacture), and it started doing the same pegging of amp gage that you are experiencing. It was an intermittent occurrence, and would last no more than 30 seconds. I had to replace it before my harness melted. All my ignition components were connected by a competent ground loop to negative battery terminal to eliminate any voltage drop differences between them, so it was a faulty unit.
 
wjajr said:
. All my ignition components were connected by a competent ground loop to negative battery terminal to eliminate any voltage drop differences between them, so it was a faulty unit.
Click to expand...

but did you also check the POSITIVE supply to the VR? That will also cause overcharge if there's a drop in the hot side.

You must check the ignition/ regulator/ field supply (dark blue) drop with key on/ engine OFF. Hook one meter lead to battery pos. and the other to the switched ignition buss. Should be no more than .2, and ABSOLUTELY no more than 1/2V

My Dart, before the "partial rewire" was ONE volt through the bulkhead!!!
 
MAN,,,,dont use that constant output regulator:violent1: it was ment for exactly what it says... "drag racing ONLY!!" constant out put means it is constantly putting out voltage to your battery, whether it needs it or not. if your amp guage pegs after starting it means your battery has no reserve left and it needs charging. your batt is going dead from that regulator constantly putting voltage into it. the purpose of the voltage regulator is to determine if your batt NEEDS to be charged. actualy the alt. puts out the same VOLTAGE regardless of regulator, a more acurate description of the function of the regulator would be an AMPERAGE regulator. after you replace your battery (and you soon will need to) replace the regulator with one of the solid state regulators now being sold by most parts stores. they look the same and function much better.
 
67Dart273:
Hot side voltage was fine, electronic regulator became intermittently defective. Once replace I haven’t had a problem.
Click to expand...

I had previously replaced most of the harness under the hood, and 40% under dash, and 90% of all brass connectors, along with a NOS bulkhead connector. All voltage drops were corrected before installing the electronic regulator.
 
powerwagonpaul said:
. actualy the alt. puts out the same VOLTAGE regardless of regulator, a more acurate description of the function of the regulator would be an AMPERAGE regulator..
Click to expand...

.....Sorry, but.......

This is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. The alternator does NOTHING without the VOLTAGE regulator, and the VOLTAGE regulator has NOTHING to do with "regulating" amperage.

The ONLY thing that determines AMPERAGE in a PROPERLY VOLTAGE REGULATED charging system is........the battery itself. IF the battery is DOWN it "takes" more amperage from the system.

The VOLTAGE regulator's job is EXACTLY what it's name implies. It CONTROLS the alternator field, ramping the voltage UP until the feedback LOOP known as "voltage sensing" "comes back" on the IGN supply buss as a "raised voltage." The regulator (used to be a voltage sensitive RELAY) SENSES this voltage and ADJUSTS the field current up or down so that the VOLTAGE output of the alternator is CONSTANT

The VOLTAGE regulator, then, REGULATES the system VOLTAGE at a CONSTANT level, and that voltage IS a target voltage of about 13.8 VOLTS

IF the alternator has a large enough amperage output rating, and if the wiring is properly sized, the REGULATED VOLTAGE will NEVER CHANGE so long as the alternator is turning at a fast enough RPM to output enough amperage to keep the voltage above the balance point of the system, IE output more amperage that the system would be drawing (in operation) from the battery.

The above condition, of course, does NOT exist in a typical 60s-70s Mopar stocker.
 
67Dart273.....do you even understsnd basic electronics? i think not you do not seem to understand the relationship between current and voltage. for example it is not voltage that kills you it is current (amperage) it is not current that makes spark plugs spark spark it is voltage, the higher the voltage the hotter the spark. the voltage regulator SENSES voltage and regulates the CURRENT to the alternator primary windings, altering the output of the alternator. you contnue to use "i dont know why" in your posts concerning the race only regulator. if you dont know maybe you should NOT be advising people to use it. i DO know why it is labled that way. it is CONSTANT OUTPUT. it dose not sense the voltage. it is designed to energize the alternator fields CONSTANTLY to put out current to the system over charging the battery. bottom line is this. dont use the "constant output" regulator on a street driven vehicle it is intended for "drag racing only" it WILL over charge your battery. dont believe me? i dont care. its your car. the problem described above (amp gauge pegging full charge) is a symptom of the battery dying (no reserve) as a result of being overchrged. read this:http://www.ehow.com/list_6308530_automotive-voltage-regulator-functions.html
 
powerwagonpaul said:
67Dart273.....do you even understsnd basic electronics? i think not you do not seem to understand the relationship between current and voltage. for example it is not voltage that kills you it is current (amperage) it is not current that makes spark plugs spark spark it is voltage, the higher the voltage the hotter the spark. the voltage regulator SENSES voltage and regulates the CURRENT to the alternator primary windings,l
Click to expand...

THIS is an INCREDIBLY offensive post by you. Worse, you have no idea what you just said.
 
67Dart273 said:
THIS is an INCREDIBLY offensive post by you. Worse, you have no idea what you just said.
Click to expand...
i am sorry if you feel offended after repeatedly telling me i am wrong.:-({|= i guess you can say what you want but nobody else can. all im saying is if you "dont know" or "dont understand" perhaps you should :stfu: :butthead:
 
'all im saying is if you "dont know" or "dont understand'

No YOU are the one who does not understand.

a VOLTAGE VOLTAGE VOLTAGE VOLTAGE VOLTAGE regulator regulates SYSTEM VOLTAGE, period END of story.

The fact that it changes, modulates, adjusts field CURRENT is an INTERNAL function of the regulating loop. It does NOT change system OUTPUT current The changing RESISTANCE of the system itself is what causes current change.

You do not seem to understand that concept. The fact that field current is changing does NOT MAKE THIS a "current" arguement.

Worse your "analysis" of what happens to the human body is INCORRECT. Yes, it is true that a certain amount of current flow is what endangers, damages, or kills a human, but there has to be enough VOLTAGE to CAUSE this current to flow depending on the body RESISTANCE

There, I've just defined the basis of Ohms Law. More voltage across a specific resistance causes more current flow. Change any one of the three, and at least one other MUST change.

In this case ( VOLTAGE REGULATOR) we have made VOLTAGE a constant. What that means is, in order to cause a change in CURRENT flow we must change system RESISTANCE, IE the state of charge of the battery, or the other LOADS on the system, such as lights, heater, etc. As the LOADS on the system change, the VOLTAGE regulator senses a sag in system voltage BECAUSE of the change in current and LOAD, and ramps up the voltage to KEEP THE VOLTAGE CONSTANT

More voltage in an ignition system does NOT mean a hotter spark, either, l UNLESS the "improved" ignition system can SOURCE THE CURRENT to MAINTAIN that high voltage.

My the same comparison, an alternator could not maintain it's voltage as controlled by the regulator, unless the alternator can source the maximum current required.

The comparison here would be to add a string of AAA cells, as compared to some nice big D cells. The current capacity of the AAA cells is low compared to the D cells. IT would do you no good to add a bunch of AAA cells in a system to increase voltage IF THE LOAD CURRENT exceeded their capacity.
 
As a microchip design engineer I'm siding with 67dart73 on this one. E=IR no matter how you look at it.
 
cudajim said:
As a microchip design engineer I'm siding with 67dart73 on this one. E=IR no matter how you look at it.
Click to expand...
im not contesting ohms law. i know how it works. back to the original problem. the "race only constant output" regulator will overcharge the battery. the two voltage regulators refered to by 67Dart273, while electronic are not "constant output" they are just a good replacement regulator. the race only units should not be used on a street driven car that sees regular use.
 
For the record, I ran one of these regulators, they maintain a constant 14.7 Volts. I ran one on a daily driven '68 Satellite for several months and never experienced a problem. I'm sure the potential is there for problems but never experienced any. David
 
update: I replaced the regulator with the Standard 128 and everything seems to be working fine. I found a vender, JM car parts selling on Amazon the regulator for $15 shipping included. I'm usually skeptical about deals too good but what the hell I'll give it a try. I did put on about 10k miles on the car since I bought it with the "race-only" type reg. Don't know how old the battery is but come the spring I'll replace that, the car usually sits during winter but it is bright and sunny here in MA today so I'm driving. Opinions about Carquest battery vs the autozone battery. Also the ground loop that everybody mentions; from alt to reg to negative post? what gauge wire would do? where on the "body" of these units do I connect to: mounting screw for reg, alternator? thanks for everybody's help, I wish I had more time to learn about and work on my car.
 
You found a STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS VR-128 for 15 bucks? I would wonder that it's legit, IE not a copy/ counterfeit/ Chineseo



There is probably about a hundred ways to ground things, but "what you want" is to get the battery neg. post as close (in voltage) to the body and engine as you can. Don't forget that whatever else you have, lights, electric rad fans, heater, big stereo, fuel pump, are all grounded to the body as well.

On my car, I used the end bolt holes on the driver side head to connect a short "starter cable" (no 4 eye-to-eye about a foot long, over to one of the body studs mounting the brake master. One reason for using this is you can simply BUY them ready made from the parts store in different lengths, like one o' these:

ford_tractor_starter_cable_faa14431b_2654sma.jpg


Then, I just made sure the body bolts/ body/ regulator were all scraped bare, and use star washers under the regulator. I also have a short no 10 jumper from the battery neg. to one of the fender mounting bolts about a foot away.
 
I just used a 10ga wire from the field to the post with a nut on the alternator body maby 2 inches long. The OEM single field alternator grounds to the case and i always had good luck with it. David
 
The Sasquach said:
I just used a 10ga wire from the field to the post with a nut on the alternator body maby 2 inches long. The OEM single field alternator grounds to the case and i always had good luck with it. David
Click to expand...

We're talking about two different things, here. I'm referring to making sure the block/ battery/ body are all at the same ground,

you

are referring to using a 70/ later model alternator with a 69/ earlier regulator.

You don't even need no10 to ground the field, 16-14 is plenty large. Only about 3A current in the field circuit.
 
Green1:
Just buy a normal, aftermarket solid state for it; they work good.
Click to expand...
Standard 128 regulator is an aftermarket electronic regulator designed to plug into existing pre stock (1972 and older) electronic controlled ignition cars with no modifications.

A 16 gage conductor is large enough to connect chassis of spark controller (orange box) if equipped, voltage regulator, and alternator to battery. Alternator will be primarily grounded by its mounting brackets, adding the loop will take that last 1/100th of a volt drop away.

Keeping battery terminals clean is very important to reducing voltage drop.
 
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