Sloppy steering 65 Cuda..need help..suggestions?

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65goldcuda

65goldcuda

@65_Cuda w/408/727/Dana 60
Joined
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Hi Guys, I have been driving my 65 Cuda for a few months now and having been working bugs out little by little. When I started.. the steering was already sloppy, but it is getting worse. I need some help in not only what parts you think need to be replaced, but also a good source to find them.

Symptoms: I just have a lot of play in the steering wheel. I can put my hand on the top and grip it at 12 o'clock position on the wheel and move it almost to the six o'clock position before I really get the car to start turning. Or in other words, lets say I am driving straight down a road and I am coming up to a slight right hand turn, If my grip is at the 12:00 position, I keep my grip and start turning to the right, I get almost nothing until I pass the 3:00 position and have to take it almost all the way to 6:00 as I am going around the corner. (compared to a new car where I could probably do that corner from the 12:00 to the 2:00 or 3:00 position. As I exit the corner and start going straight again I notice the slack and slop and almost have to pass the 12:00 towards the 10:00 or 11:00 to keep it straight.. (hopefully this makes sense). So I know I probably have a lot of slop and play in my steering box, and maybe even some in my control arms and ball joints. I also know that it is an old car and even know it has power steering it will probably not ever handle like a new car, (which I don't expect) but I think mine is getting worse, and I want the car to be as solid as possible. So I would actually be willing to replace all of those parts to tighten everything up if that what it takes. (Because I have pretty much replaced the rest of the powertrain and rear end and suspension, new shocks etc). But where do you find good replacement steering/suspension parts for my car? Is there a good online source anyone could recommend?

Thanks in advance..
 
The usual outfit to buy from is Firm Feel (http://firmfeel.com/).

Do you have manual or power steering? Please know that if you have that much slop in your steering you'll probably also replace a bunch of suspension bushings and what-not. I went nuts on my '65 Barracuda and replaced the control arms, bushings, everything. And then installed a complete hydroboost system with a Borgeson power steering gear. You obviously don't have to go that far, but I suffer from "while I'm in there" disease.

-marcus
 
R3dplanet said:
The usual outfit to buy from is Firm Feel (http://firmfeel.com/).

Do you have manual or power steering? Please know that if you have that much slop in your steering you'll probably also replace a bunch of suspension bushings and what-not. I went nuts on my '65 Barracuda and replaced the control arms, bushings, everything. And then installed a complete hydroboost system with a Borgeson power steering gear. You obviously don't have to go that far, but I suffer from "while I'm in there" disease.

-marcus
Click to expand...

Thank you, I agree, I suffer from the same thing. Yes, it is already power steering.

The funny (not so funny) thing about this is, I have actually gotten used to how it drives and am almost lazy about wanting to get it done (but I know it really needs to be done soon). So I will look into the place you suggested.

Thanks..
 
Before you throw a ton of money at it have somebody move the steering wheel while you look at the various components. The adjustment screw on top of the box can take out some of the play there but if the steering shaft and pitman arm are responding closely together your issues are other than the box; things like idler arm or pitman arm, bushings, tie rod ends etc...
 
To answer your question. I don't have near that slop and here is my plan for my 65
Upper control arm bushings
Lower control arm bushings
Tie rod ends
Idler arm
Upper and lower ball joints
Strut rod bushings
Power steering box
I got all my moog stuff from rock auto

Another thought while you're at it is to get a later Saginaw pump and pump it down for better road feel. Google "mopar action pump it down" I actually added way more washers then they did and love it. I think my spacer is about an eighth inch.
 
sounds like a new steering box is needed. im sure you have to or might as well do everything else while your there but whole front end build i would think.
 
My Dart was bad, but not that bad. Maybe almost a quarter turn. I adjusted the play out of the steering box adjustment screw with locknut. Don't overdo it.

It's much better, but still wanders a little. I had gotten use to it. I have a sloppy upper ball joint that is next. I've had my hand on each component as the steering wheel was turned slightly to inspect for loose parts and found things to be pretty tight. The front suspension needs to be unloaded to check the ball joints for play with a bar (or 2 X 4) under the wheel lifting up on it. Good time to check the wheel bearings and tires for abnormal wear. I always use jack stands. Don't forget the pitman arm. Good Luck!
 
Thanks guys, you have all been very helpful. I have looked up each and every suggestion. So far the people at http://firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_parts.html seem to have a really good rebuild kit for the whole lower assembly. About $1000 in parts to redo all the bushings, ball joints, new steering box etc. A lot of money but a drop in the bucket for me unfortuntley. I think based on all of your advice it would be wise for me to just replace most of those parts for reliability and safety's sake. The last thing on my list to do is brakes (I still have the old drum brakes with single master cylinder).
 
First, forget about parts until you take the time and take a REAL good look at the entire steering / suspension system. This really, is going to require two people.

Start at the top and work down

Have someone move the wheel back and forth continuously, while you look. Look at the steering shaft, coming out of the firewall, at the coupler, and at the shaft into the box. make sure it all moves TOGETHER with no play. If there is ANY note that.

Now watch the box steering shaft and the pitman arm. Is there a delay / play between the shaft and the pitman? OK, so if there is, that's play in the BOX

Now look underneath. Watch the pitman, and the center link. Movement there means the ball is worn out.

Move to the pitman arm, watch in at each end, and in relation to the center link. With it stopped, wiggle it up / down, any movement there is bad. Look for play between the pitman ball and center link, and between the idler ball and the center link

Now move to each tie rod ball. Again, moving the steering wheel, look for play, and with wheel stopped manually wiggle the tie rod against the steering arm and against the center link, looking for play.

Now move to the lower ball joints. Jack the car up so it's weight is on the LCA. Wiggle the ball joint, using a pry bar if needed, looking for play. Ditto the upper joints.

Shake and generally wiggle everything.

Frankly, if the front end has not been rebuilt "lately" or if you don't know the history of the car, it would be best to plan on replacing ALL wear parts except for the pitman arm, and then see where you stand with IT.

I would NOT immediately jump on the steering box.

DO YOU HAVE and you DO NEED a factory service manual. You can download them, free at MyMopar. Several of them "over there" came from the guys HERE.
 
65goldcuda said:
Thanks guys, you have all been very helpful. I have looked up each and every suggestion. So far the people at http://firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_parts.html seem to have a really good rebuild kit for the whole lower assembly. About $1000 in parts to redo all the bushings, ball joints, new steering box etc. A lot of money but a drop in the bucket for me unfortuntley. I think based on all of your advice it would be wise for me to just replace most of those parts for reliability and safety's sake. The last thing on my list to do is brakes (I still have the old drum brakes with single master cylinder).
Click to expand...
inline tube sells a kit that will allow you to bolt up a dual res master cylinder for a very reasonable price. Come with a distribution block and lines from the mc to it
 
67Dart273, thank you your Very detailed post, thank you so much for your help. will do!!
 
Hey 65goldcuda!

A front end rebuild is on my list also. Mine is in relatively good shape for a 66 but I want to eventually get it feeling better than new!

A while ago I ran across a great step by step over at Moparmax.

Here's the link. http://www.moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_10-torsiontips-1.html


Oh, and I did the dual master cylinder upgrade not long ago. I went with Rick Ehrenberg's kit. My 66 has factory front discs though. I also ordered the fittings from him so all I had to do was buy some brake line and use my double flare tool.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-New-D...440-/321836132124?hash=item4aeeeda71c&vxp=mtr

Let us know when you do your front end and how much difference it makes!!
 
With that much play it's dangerous to drive. If you are not very familiar with steering and front ends, take it to a shop that specializes in that kind of work. They can give you an estimate that probably won't be cheap but it will get you safe again. tmm
 
toolmanmike said:
With that much play it's dangerous to drive. If you are not very familiar with steering and front ends, take it to a shop that specializes in that kind of work. They can give you an estimate that probably won't be cheap but it will get you safe again. tmm
Click to expand...

Thank you, I agree (Not safe) which is why I am ready to bite the bullet and tackle the problem. I have a good mechanic that I trust that did most of the install work with the new motor/trans and drivetrain.

I will let you guys know how it goes.
 
Update: Here is what was wrong. The lower bolt in the power steering box (not the pump) had broken off (and was/is almost impossible tap and remove with an easy out because the frame rails are in a box formation around it, not to mention the starter and the transmission and oil pan make the area impossible to get a drill a the right angle...there is nut welded to the backside of the frame rail) and the top bolt was very loose. So The best way I could repair it (and a friend at a muffler shop helped me) was to weld the power steering box to the frame (which can be removed with a grinder if I ever need to change out the box) and tighten the upper bolt and use some thread lock (blue) and a lock washer to hope it never comes loose again (something I will check on periodically to make sure all is well). THIS DRASTICALLY improved my steering slop problem (as you can imagine) and now I only have about 10-20 degrees or one or two hours on the clock + or - using 12:00 as the steering wheel position going straight down the road.

We also solved our header clearance problem (the sway bar and pitman or idler arm?) rubbed on one of the header pipes as you turned right and accelerated the tourque of the motor would cause the sway bar to rub on the header pipe). We heated it up with a torch and put a nice "dimple" into the header pipe to allow for about 1/2 to 3/4" of clearance. It now clears with no problem.

I have posted some photos in case it helps anyone in the future.

So..problem/mystery solved for now. THanks everyone.
 

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