tci 904 or built 727

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abodyhotrod

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so i have a planning on 500+hp motor being built and have a few tranny's the ones concidering are a 727 b&m rebuild cheetata valve body with 3800-4200 boss converter or a tci 904 with well whaterver converter could work(4000-5000) i would really be willing to buy a converter if the 904 would work i now have a 1500,2500,2800 stalls for it but being a 1/4 mile car none of em will work.

the 904 is in my daily 318 2nd gear cherper. the only reason i concider this trans is it has an alum drive shaft and its way lighter mabey a few tenths in the 1/4.

the 727 was built with high performance clutches and has a shift kit + some extra tricks 1-2 + 2-3 kick.

well i guess i could get another stall for the 727 if ness. but would it be better off with the 904?
 
I think sometimes it's all just whatever you want. I had a 904 behind a 383 and it was faster, but the 727 was always stronger. My personal favorite is the 727 just because I have never had any problems whatsoever with them, from stock to built. I have a few issues with the 904 though.
 
I would'nt put ANYTHING from tci in my car..now that being said,i prefer the 904 have one built to your specs with a good quality converter and you'll be fine..i have a built 904 in my duster and it handles everything i can throw at it from my 416 stroker to my built 360...
 
the 904 will not be touched as far as internals it is 1 year old and has 500 miles on it. runs fine just thought it might fit the bill with a higher stall.
 
the 904 will not be touched as far as internals it is 1 year old and has 500 miles on it. runs fine just thought it might fit the bill with a higher stall.

Good luck with it..they don't call them Total Crap Incorporated for nothing...
 
wow buddy you must not like tci. i get it..

i was planning on the 727 but since i have a new 904 and know its lighter faster in the 1/4 i was just asking the forum for there input, thanks for yours stroked 340.
 
Lot of guys on this site have had issues with TCI so I would take note. I must be one of the fortunate ones. Have a TCI 904 streetfighter in my cuda with a TCI 2800 converter. Have about 3000 miles & 30 1/8 mile passes without a prob. But I know what I have & don't go crazy in the burnout box. Just like anything.You get what you pay for. They are a good unit for the price IMO, but don't use one behind serious HP. I have maybe 400 HP @ the crank. I think 500 hp would be pushing any 904 let alone TCI's mass produced units. Just my opinion but I would do it right & go with the 727. Might be a couple of 10ths slower but the extra strength even with 500 hp will be worth it. Good luck & keep us posted.

Oldschoolcuda
 
My 904 handles the 520+ h.p. my 416 in front of it puts out,i would'nt hesitate to re-build it if it ever goes...
 
For future reference stroked what type of specs. is your 904built to & who did the work. Dont have any one local & I would like to keep my 904 if possible when I do a higher HP build. Thanks.

Oldschoolcuda
 
For future reference stroked what type of specs. is your 904built to & who did the work. Dont have any one local & I would like to keep my 904 if possible when I do a higher HP build. Thanks.

Oldschoolcuda

It has the "red" h.p. clutches,low first gear lever,Turbo Action full manual valve body,deep Mopar pan w/spacer,and a secret the builder won't tell me lol..it was built by a local guy who knows his Mopar trannys..i supplied the valvebody and the pan,him the rest and he charged me 500.00,still going strong after 3 seasons of racing...the converter is from Ultimate its a 9 1/2 with a 3800 stall,some of the best money i ever spent...
 
I have a TCI 727 compitition trans in my barracuda and I have to say.. that other than I seal leak that it had on the shift linkage. it is a nice hard hitting trans that has not given me any problems.

as a note.... I tore the trans completly down just to check it out after reading a few posts here and found it to be put together with good quality parts.

I did have to change the tail shaft for so I could use my factory shift linkage.

I didnt buy the street fighter trans just because I figured that it was a rebuilt trans with the pressure cranked up, and if that was the case it was way over priced. I didnt want to take a chance on that. I could do a basic rebuild and do the valve body on my bench for under 200 bucks. would be good for a street car but, not for something making any kind of power and was going to me raced with any kind of sticky tire. just my .02

I guess your milage will vary with any product.

I am planning on adding a low gear set over the winter it will be a good time to check it the trans out again to see if there is any kind of problem starting to develop. I will report my findings here on FABO.
 
I haven't seen any in person but have read numerous posts on different boards about problems with TCI and B&M rebuilds. If you have a local that you can trust and knows torqueflites go with him.
 
With your permission, I'm going to jump in here and post some information that may be controversial, but is not MY opinion; it's the opinion of someone who has forgotten more about Torqueflites that I'd learn in 10 lifetimes.

His name is Len Schneider, and he has been building automatic transmissions and converters for drag racers for about 30 years. His shop is in Grass Valley, CA, a few miles North of Sacramento. He has built Torqueflites for many West Coast NHRA racers who have won Divisonal races, National events, and held records... and has built the converters for the $$$$$$$ Dinan twin-turbo V-12 BMWS, and will be building the converters for two of the fifty 2009 Cobra Jet Mustangs that will be "factory hot rods" from Ford, with 700HP supercharged, 4-valve, V8s built for NHRA drag racing. The reason he's only building two is, the other 48 will all be manual trannys.

This guy has been around. The many record-holders that utilize his Mopar transmissions go back to the late '70/early '80s (see attached photo of the Winter/Esslinger record-holding 340 Duster from 1983.)

I said all that to say this: When he talks, I listen.

When I built my supercharged 360 Magnum-powered Valiant, I had to get a transmission, so I asked him the age-old question: "904 or 727?????"

He told me some amazing stuff, the crux of which was, unless you NEED a 727 (700hp and up), you will have better luck with a 904.

Aside from the better e.t.'s afforded by the lighter internal components (he wasn't really very adamant about that), the most important thing he told me is this:
727 Torqueflites have such HEAVY rotating components that if you use stock planetaries, clutch drums, etc., and run rpms over 6,000, they will literally tear themselves to pieces without any help from you. The start/stop operational process that goes on in a Torqueflite places huge inertia loads on the components, over and above what it takes to move the car and control engine rpm. His experience has proven over the years that a properly-built 904 will handle up to 700 horsepower and live. There's no reason to give away that car-length and a half-to two carlengths that a 727 will cost you, for longivity, because it's not going to live any longer, IF as long.

Now, I am sure that there will be guys here, whose experiences will be in direct opposition to what he told me, and I certainly wouldn't argue with any of them; they know what happened to THEM.

I have NO dog in this hunt; I'm just telling you what a guy who makes a very good living building these things told me.

My 904 has taken a LOT of abuse and still is shifting cleanly and with authority, hooked to a blown 360. It won't last forever; nothing does, but I took his advice and haven't been sorry, yet.

The automatics that are the darlings of Comp Eliminator, and are run behind the Hemis in the NHRA's SS/AH class where money's no object, are mostly ProTrans transmissions, which are based on the 904... and some of those Hemis are putting out 800+ HP.

That's all I have to say, except when I asked him about "exploding Torqueflites," something I have heard about, but have never seen, he said that that was a phenomenon of 727's... and was due to the rear sprag anchor coming loose in the case, and was something that just never happens to 904's because the anchor setup is better-engineered. He said he'd never heard of a 904 exploding... in 30 years.

Like I said; these are HIS opinions and information... not mine.

You pays your money, and you takes your choice. Good luck!!! :happy10:

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

image0-2.jpg
 
Here's another picture of that same car, with new owners and a new paint job, and a new record (10.29 @ 128 and change.) This was in 1983 with Super Stock rules of the time; 340 with stock heads, stock compression ratio, .060" overbore, stock T-Quad, any intake manifold, and a solid roller-tappet cam. Cleared the traps at 8,300 rpm.

Len Schneider 904 and converter...

image0-1.jpg
 
Nice write up Bill. Hope all this helps abodyhotrod. I'm feeling more confident about staying with a 904. Thanks

Oldschoolcuda
 
Well, you're very welcome.

I was astounded when Len told me about the problem of the intertia of the components contributing heavily (no pun intended) to the damage incurred when racing a 727, but as I said, that is his considered opinion; not mine.

If he were just some jake-leg, shadetree-mechanic (like ~I~ am) and he told me that, I'd think he was either making it up, or nuts, but this guy has 30 years' experience building T-Flites for so many of the really fast NHRA Stock and Super Stock racers on the West Coast, I have to take what he says seriously.... and, he has no reason to make something like that up... he wasn't trying to sell me ANYTHING.

Hell, I was surprised when Mopar started putting 904's behind 360s in Cordobas, and other heavy, 360-powered cars... I thought they'd never last.... but, they did.

So, what do I know? Not much, apparently...

I learn SOMETHING new every day; this one was just a little hard to swallow, but I'm sure Len wouldn't have told me that if it were not true... He and I have been good friends since 1980. (He's also a VERY successful Stock and Super Stock racer, having held several NHRA National records, and having won the Division VII points championship three times, as well as the Phoenix NHRA national event with his Super Stocker.)

Thanks for listening; hope it helps somebody!

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

mynameoncar.jpg
 
The key is "built properly". A stock internal 904 witha valve body just doesnt last well for me. They do ok. But not great. Built properly, a 904 will live decently, and they have a lower first gear, take less power, and weigh less. But for a few hundred bucks you can build a basically stock 727 and it will last even at 500-600hp levels on the street. In terms of explosions, the 904s built for race cars wont explode because they replace the component that explodes... The forward clutch drum. On a 904, the factory one uses a single round spring arrangment that unwinds and that causes issues. The race units are steel and use the same setup the 727s do, which are multiple springs and are not affected by centrifical force. They have the same rear sprague and geartrain designs. Identical except in size of parts. Both will explode if the sprague is damaged and they run a stock sintered iron forward clutch drum. But 904s were never considered good for race cars until racers really looked into the driveline for lower ETs. It's kind of like saying metric Ford transmission is bulletproof because they never break in competition... None are used.. so none break. I agree with his statement that the loads are very high, but the parts are way overbuilt for the need. Which is why the mods for a 600 pound feet torqflite is basically a few minor upgrades of servos (dealing with higher pressure) and safety such as the sprague/clutch drum/vent relocation.
 
>>>>>They have the same rear sprague and geartrain designs. Identical except in size of parts. Both will explode if the sprague is damaged and they run a stock sintered iron forward clutch drum.<<<<<

It wasn't the sprag that was the offending part; it was the way the sprag is anchored to the case that was what caused the problem in 727s, according to Len. I have never had a T-Flite apart, so I am only repeating what Len said about the problem. You, obviously have hands-on experience, which puts you miles ahead of me when discussing this issue. All I can do is repeat what he said, which basically was, the 904s don't explode because the rear sprag anchors stay put; the 727's don't, sometimes. If that's wrong, I apologize for dissemnating bad information.

>>>>>But 904s were never considered good for race cars until racers really looked into the driveline for lower ETs.<<<<<

That's true, I am sure. But, when ProTrans started building and selling their $5,000.00 race transmissions, they used the 904 exclusively, which says a lot about its power-handling capabilites, since a lot of their transmissions go into 800+ hp, 426 Hemi-powered Super Stockers.

I don't know anything about a metric Ford transmission, but I do know (and, I'm not even sure if this is pertinent), Len always used a C4 (which is the Ford equivalent of a 904) behind the 620hp 351 Cleveland in his Super Stocker. Only ever had a problem with it once, that I know of.

Thanks a lot for your good information, moper; like I said, I haven't ever seen inside a 904, much less rebuilt one, so my ignorance is huge....

Bill
 
the single wound spring can be easliy replaced during the rebuild with a 24return spring module...


well..the picture did not work...
 
Me too, Demon seed. I have learned a lot since coming aboard here, but still have a LONG way to go...

My lack of real, hands-on experience with Torqueflites is embarrassing,to say the least, but I am learning, anyway. One of these days, I'll buy a junkyard tranny and rebuild it, just for the experience. I know there are some specialized tools that are needed, but I don't think they're real expensive.

One thing I need is a "ground" (lightened) governor weight that will allow me to run the car at the strip without having to manually hold it in 1st gear. I have a friend who has a 390hp crate 360 Magnum-powered '69 Dart GT, and when they rebuilt his transmission, prior to installation, they ground his governor weight so that the automatic 1-2 upshift at full throttle comes at 5.800 rpm. He can start with his selector in "2", and ignore it 'til he needs to shift into 3rd gear.

I want that, too.

I wonder if there's a spec for the weight of that governor to accomplish this?
Might just be a trial-and-error deal, but they got it right on the first try on his transmission. It works great!

The guy who built his transmission retired and sold the business, so I can't ask him...:angry7:

Anybody reading this have any experience with this procedure?

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
A&A transmission sells those modified governors...
 
Properly built 727. Go that route & be done with it.

My granpaws stock 82 318 dodge truck has gone through 3 904's in its lifetime.

& I agree TCI is rebuilt junk. Poor products & piss poor customer service.
 
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