Torsion Bar re-enforcement at Socket

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Looks Great, Thanks for starting a couple of threads on this. I didn't know this could be a problem.
 
I think it's funny alot of people talk about how the torsion bars are so great and why would you switch to a coil over I think this answers that question,
 
how many car were junked in the 80's due to this easy fix.
 
johnparts said:
I think it's funny alot of people talk about how the torsion bars are so great and why would you switch to a coil over I think this answers that question,
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Aint like that happens everyday.....how many times have you seen it happen??
 
I would take the torsion bars and the unsprung weight any day of the week! hell the car is only 40 years old!!!! Not to mention Chryslers impeccable build quality back then and even today! I have a 3 inch slit at the seam of my floorboards where they meet the upswing towards the pedals, it is over a 1/2" wide at its widest...Some assembly line meathead just filled her with seam sealant! I would love to see some of these coilover set ups 40 years from now! Nice job on the repairs, thank you to enlightening me to the potential problem! Havent seen anyone mention that down side to those giant bars! Mine will get that same reinforcement next spring when she goes on the rotiserie. Thanks for following up on your original break.
 
IMO, a torsion bar suspension is a very good platform to start with when it comes to handling...much better than what GM or Ford offered...

And yes, this is the first I've ever seen this happen, I dont think what happened was from stiffer torsion bars...
 
My car is a California car. The plates were made by hand. I actually hit the speed bump a little hard to see how she would handle it and I got my answer. The ripped areas were rust free so rust wasn't the issue. We did notice how little factory weld was at the socket area in the first place. Oh it was the stiffer Torsion bars alright. There was no other reason the metal was ripped with that twisting motion. Someone replied back with the exact same problem they had in the past. My car is at stock height but notice when you put these bars in you have very litle adjustment left. This is so easy to avoid with this easy re-enforcement. Hope this thread helps someone avoid this problem.
 
well, i must add, thanks for posting the information, and you never can get enough reinforcement. :) looks good.
 
limelite70 said:
how many car were junked in the 80's due to this easy fix.
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Pretty much every one that was used here as a daily driver. The area does not drain well, so it stays wet longer, and no one ever pressure washed out the winter salt. Got a 71 Swinger that I drove year round in early 2000's. Failed at 30mph in summer. Actually had no problem driving it home :)

Grant
 
johnparts said:
I think it's funny alot of people talk about how the torsion bars are so great and why would you switch to a coil over I think this answers that question,
Click to expand...

It does no such thing. The suspension load has to act somewhere. Torsion bars are just springs, they put the load on the anchors. Coil over suspensions are no different, they put that load on the lower control arms and the upper spring anchor. Does that really make a coilover set up a better design? It adds the weight of the spring into your unsprung weight (bad), and puts all the suspension forces on the lca. Not to mention taking a car that was designed around having a torsion bar suspension, and then relocating all of those forces onto areas of the frame that weren't intended to carry them.

As far as it being the stiffer springs, no, they're not entirely to blame. I run 1.12" torsion bars on my Challenger, which is a bigger, heavier car, with the same design for the torsion bar anchor. That's a 270 lb/in torsion bar, which is over 2.5 times the original spring rate. No issues with the torsion bar anchors after over 20k miles, and my car DOES have rust.

What you had there was a crappy weld, and it would have failed with the original torsion bars too. Maybe not quite as quickly, but it would have failed.
 
72bluNblu said:
It does no such thing. The suspension load has to act somewhere. Torsion bars are just springs, they put the load on the anchors. Coil over suspensions are no different, they put that load on the lower control arms and the upper spring anchor. Does that really make a coilover set up a better design? It adds the weight of the spring into your unsprung weight (bad), and puts all the suspension forces on the lca. Not to mention taking a car that was designed around having a torsion bar suspension, and then relocating all of those forces onto areas of the frame that weren't intended to carry them.

As far as it being the stiffer springs, no, they're not entirely to blame. I run 1.12" torsion bars on my Challenger, which is a bigger, heavier car, with the same design for the torsion bar anchor. That's a 270 lb/in torsion bar, which is over 2.5 times the original spring rate. No issues with the torsion bar anchors after over 20k miles, and my car DOES have rust.

What you had there was a crappy weld, and it would have failed with the original torsion bars too. Maybe not quite as quickly, but it would have failed.
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I guess thats a possibility since the original welds were only designed for stock bars anyway. Engineering a car is only math and the math for stock bars only called for what they did concerning my rear sockets when assembling it. That so called "crappy weld" worked fine for 38 years with stock bars though. Who knows?
 
California Dart said:
I guess thats a possibility since the original welds were only designed for stock bars anyway. Engineering a car is only math and the math for stock bars only called for what they did concerning my rear sockets when assembling it. That so called "crappy weld" worked fine for 38 years with stock bars though. Who knows?
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It may have lasted for the last 38 years with the crappy weld. Maybe the overlooked factor is that you hit the speed bump at a increased speed than normal when doing a test. With or without stronger bars this probably would have caused the damage to the mount. But with the stronger bars the force of hitting the speed hump had to go to the weekest point.
Its like hitting a nail with a hammer. Its not the weight of the hammer, but the force of the hammer in motion that is driving the nail in. Unfortunately the weld and mount were not up to taking this increase amount of force. Simple physics.
''F = ma''
where F is the force,
m is the mass of an object-weight of unsprung weight
and a is the acceleration of the object - acceleration of unsrung weight bouncing off speed hump
More speed/Accelleration = more force. Maybe it may have survived with the smaller bars(maybe). But its like building an engine. You dont put in stronger crank and keep the old rods and then blame the rods when you rev it to 7k + and it explodes. Just my opinion. I like your re-enforcement plates :violent1:
 
If these are the same bars I have they should Not have been adjusted up to stock ride height! They are designed for a lower than stock ride height.this may not have caused the failure but I would imagine it definitely contributed to it.these larger than stock bars are of course much stiffer and are not able to twist like a factory bar.if one cranked it up to stock ride height the bar will not have much give left in it and will transfer more force to the crossmember.just my .02C.
 
jomoper said:
If these are the same bars I have they should Not have been adjusted up to stock ride height! They are designed for a lower than stock ride height.this may not have caused the failure but I would imagine it definitely contributed to it.these larger than stock bars are of course much stiffer and are not able to twist like a factory bar.if one cranked it up to stock ride height the bar will not have much give left in it and will transfer more force to the crossmember.just my .02C.
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I get cha. We just installed and left the ar a little lower. The whole car is sitting lower with the hotchkis leafs. Sits real nice now and corners like a bad dog.
 
California Dart said:
I get cha. We just installed and left the ar a little lower. The whole car is sitting lower with the hotchkis leafs. Sits real nice now and corners like a bad dog.
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Good to hear My 1" T-bars are sitting on the shelf right now eventually I'll get around to re-installing them I may make the same reinforcements as you did.Any other mods besides the leafs and Torsion bars,does your car have anti sway Bar(s) what about shocks? Just wondering I wanna make my Dart as responsive and fun to drive as possible.
 
jomoper said:
Good to hear My 1" T-bars are sitting on the shelf right now eventually I'll get around to re-installing them I may make the same reinforcements as you did.Any other mods besides the leafs and Torsion bars,does your car have anti sway Bar(s) what about shocks? Just wondering I wanna make my Dart as responsive and fun to drive as possible.
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I rebuilt the entire front end, Hotchkis leafs, Bilstein shocks (far better than KYB's) and sway bars front and rear, 1.08 torsions from PST (on this site). Picked up the sway bar set for about 200.00 on ebay. Bolted right up. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/160689294977?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)
 
How should the factory welds look to be "good", anyone have a pic? I took a close look at mine and there's a solid consistent bead going all the way around where the socket sticks out the back, I think the same in front but not sure.
 
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