Underhood dimensions 71 Swinger

[1930]

Actually these were taken from a 74 today but I am certain that they will be the same from sometime before 71 on up till at least 74. Doing a google search gave me no help so I hope that these will help someone later on.

I am a bodyman, these are very accurate measurements and they werent taken from some random guy that haphazardly took a tape and sorta measured.

Any questions feel free to ask and assuming I see the question I will respond, if no response than I didnt see it and just send me a PM or whatever you now call it.

BTW this car was as square as any brand new car that rolls off the assy line today but bear in mind there is alot more play with the sheetmetal cause they used J-clips on a slot

 

[Ddaddy]

Can you explained what these measurement points are? Are they taken at the fender bolts or somewhere else?

It would also help if you would re-label the letters to be some thing like PA and PB so that they can be differentiated from side to side and better orient the measurements. There is also no front or rear orientation either, making it hard to understand which point is where.

 

[1930]

Can you explained what these measurement points are? Are they taken at the fender bolts or somewhere else?

It would also help if you would re-label the letters to be some thing like PA and PB so that they can be differentiated from side to side and better orient the measurements. There is also no front or rear orientation either, making it hard to understand which point is where.

I honestly didnt think anyone would care but I can explain, fender bolts B-G and assume pict is drawn ( like it was ) as if you are standing in the front of the car. A is upper rail to cowl seam, it is typically the standard of measurement since it is the most reliable that I could find on these A-bodies.

If that point has moved in other words than the car prob is not worth fixing.

I will post a picture of my A when I get back to the shop tomm.

Feel free to see my just newly started thread here The Garage Journal Board and see me hopefully transform this car into something.

I hope that is clear, if not than I will try to do a better job

 

[72bluNblu]

I saw in your thread you've got a car that was hit and is no longer square. In my opinion, you should be using frame dimensions from the factory to make your checks. Comparing the locations of the fender bolts isn't a great reference IMHO, there's a lot of adjustment to be had there. The body measurements on these cars are all over the place, even on cars that are straight. A 1/4" of variation was factory tolerance on the suspension points, let alone the body points.

These are the factory frame dimensions for a '71 Dart, same for a '70. This is what I would check. The fender bolt locations I'd be a lot less concerned about unless the fender wouldn't bolt up or align with the hood. But again, there's a ton of adjustment there. As long as the rails are straight, the rest is just getting the gaps to line up. I'm not saying a reference isn't useful, but, I wouldn't count the measurements off another A-body as gospel, even if they were off a straight car. Guidelines maybe.

 

[1930]

I saw in your thread you've got a car that was hit and is no longer square. In my opinion, you should be using frame dimensions from the factory to make your checks. Comparing the locations of the fender bolts isn't a great reference IMHO, there's a lot of adjustment to be had there. The body measurements on these cars are all over the place, even on cars that are straight. A 1/4" of variation was factory tolerance on the suspension points, let alone the body points.

These are the factory frame dimensions for a '71 Dart, same for a '70. This is what I would check. The fender bolt locations I'd be a lot less concerned about unless the fender wouldn't bolt up or align with the hood. But again, there's a ton of adjustment there. As long as the rails are straight, the rest is just getting the gaps to line up. I'm not saying a reference isn't useful, but, I wouldn't count the measurements off another A-body as gospel, even if they were off a straight car. Guidelines maybe.

View attachment 1715134352

Ive seen this picture online already and it gives no real indication on what specific points that it is using. It is a generic almost useless diagram completely unnecessary in my case since the car Im working on suffered a light hit and no severe frame damage, just a little sway on the bottom and quite a bit more on the top.

Squaring off the lower rails ( and the upper rails for that matter ) is nothing more than finding safe points on the vehicle that have been unaffected, ( one on each side ) and from there building the car outward.

I guarantee ( regardless of what may be read online ) that with the measurements Ive given above once the top is square than the sheetmetal will literally fall into place and will require very little adjustment to line up correctly even if I were to do nothing with the lower rails.

I plan to of course straighten the lower rails, foolish not to and it could affect allignment.

 

[GeorgeH]

Ive seen this picture online already and it gives no real indication on what specific points that it is using. It is a generic almost useless diagram..

It's not a very complete spec sheet by todays standards. Unless using a tram gauge to take the measurements the numbers become pretty useless. Point to point with a tape measure will give a "long" measurement if the points are on different horizontal planes. Maybe me, but I'm not seeing enough height measurements to establish a datum line. No upper body measurements to reference the cowl section etc. It's totally possible for the underhood measurements to be perfect and everything still be out of whack if the cowl section twisted with it in a wreck.

 

[72bluNblu]

Ive seen this picture online already and it gives no real indication on what specific points that it is using. It is a generic almost useless diagram completely unnecessary in my case since the car Im working on suffered a light hit and no severe frame damage, just a little sway on the bottom and quite a bit more on the top.

Squaring off the lower rails ( and the upper rails for that matter ) is nothing more than finding safe points on the vehicle that have been unaffected, ( one on each side ) and from there building the car outward.

I guarantee ( regardless of what may be read online ) that with the measurements Ive given above once the top is square than the sheetmetal will literally fall into place and will require very little adjustment to line up correctly even if I were to do nothing with the lower rails.

I plan to of course straighten the lower rails, foolish not to and it could affect allignment.

The picture isn't useless, you need the rest of the factory manual though, and you need to actually READ the process in order to use the picture. It's not a standalone deal. As someone that's supposed to be a "bodyman", you should know that the process to get the dimension is just as important as the dimension itself. Everything in the early manuals assumes you've leveled the frame and dropped lines using a plumb bob. That's chassis alignment 101. There are enough measurements in the manual to locate all the critical chassis points, the body points follow from those.

That particular diagram is from the '71 Dodge body service manual, which you can download here http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1971_Dodge_Body_Service_Manual.zip

You can also download the entire 1970 service manual for Challenger's and Dart's, the body and frame alignment stuff is on page 833 http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1970_Challenger_Dart_Service_Manual.zip

As for the measurements you've posted, they're not really all that useful. If you pulled them off the car in the picture, the chassis wasn't even leveled. It's not on a flat surface, and it's not even sitting on it's suspension. These cars twist and flex quite a bit, so, there's no guarantee those measurements will be right for a car that's been leveled and squared the way they're supposed to be for taking chassis and body measurements.

If the frame rails are straight, then square the radiator support (there are more than enough dimensions in the manual to do that). If the radiator support is straight and square, the frame rails are straight and the cowl is undamaged, the inner fenders will take care of themselves. And, they don't matter beyond getting the body to fit anyway if the rest of the chassis points are correct. So, just make the fenders fit.

 

[1930]

The picture isn't useless, you need the rest of the factory manual though, and you need to actually READ the process in order to use the picture. It's not a standalone deal. As someone that's supposed to be a "bodyman", you should know that the process to get the dimension is just as important as the dimension itself. Everything in the early manuals assumes you've leveled the frame and dropped lines using a plumb bob. That's chassis alignment 101. There are enough measurements in the manual to locate all the critical chassis points, the body points follow from those.

View attachment 1715134509

That particular diagram is from the '71 Dodge body service manual, which you can download here http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1971_Dodge_Body_Service_Manual.zip

You can also download the entire 1970 service manual for Challenger's and Dart's, the body and frame alignment stuff is on page 833 http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1970_Challenger_Dart_Service_Manual.zip

As for the measurements you've posted, they're not really all that useful. If you pulled them off the car in the picture, the chassis wasn't even leveled. It's not on a flat surface, and it's not even sitting on it's suspension. These cars twist and flex quite a bit, so, there's no guarantee those measurements will be right for a car that's been leveled and squared the way they're supposed to be for taking chassis and body measurements.

If the frame rails are straight, then square the radiator support (there are more than enough dimensions in the manual to do that). If the radiator support is straight and square, the frame rails are straight and the cowl is undamaged, the inner fenders will take care of themselves. And, they don't matter beyond getting the body to fit anyway if the rest of the chassis points are correct. So, just make the fenders fit.

I commented on the picture/info that was posted, no additional anything was given. The picture you posted was and is in my opinion as mentioned practically useless as a stand alone diagram.

Additional information would be needed to make use of that diagram which evidently may be avail.

Its not something I need for what I am doing but thanks for posting the links anyway.

 

[72bluNblu]

I commented on the picture/info that was posted, no additional anything was given. The picture you posted was and is in my opinion as mentioned practically useless as a stand alone diagram.

Additional information would be needed to make use of that diagram which evidently may be avail.

Its not something I need for what I am doing but thanks for posting the links anyway.

It IS something you need.

If your car got hit hard enough that you need to adjust the fender mounting holes, ie, the inner fenders, it got hit hard enough that you need to put it up on stands, level it, drop the plumb lines and check the frame rails. Because if it got hit hard enough to move the inner fenders, it got hit hard enough to move the rails. If the rails are straight, awesome, you have a solid foundation to work with. But you can't have the fender mounting holes out of whack without having other stuff out of whack, the radiator support, the cowl, the frame rails, something. And you can't properly square the radiator support if you're not squaring it to straight frame rails.

I'm sorry, but, if it got hit hard enough to worry about the fender mounts, you have to start from the beginning. Because that's what those diagrams are for. You have to start from the rails. If the rails are straight, you move to the radiator support. But you have to check that against the rails, so, you have to check the rails first. When the radiator support is square, you can move on to the inner fenders, because you have to check those by referencing the radiator support. If you use the measurements in the factory service manual, you can work step by step, referencing and projecting your way through the entire chassis and body.

And, like I said, if you pulled those measurements off the car sitting on a couple of rim stands sitting in the dirt in a wrecking yard, they're pretty much meaningless. Because in stock form you can change all the body gaps on these cars just by jacking the car up in the front. In order for those measurements to be useful they'd need to be taken on a car that was leveled and square, and that car sitting in the yard is definitely not leveled, and we have no idea if it's square or not. And that doesn't even consider that cars on this website, original cars with no damage, are frequently found to be as much as a half inch different on body locations than other original, undamaged cars. It comes up all the time fitting wheels and tires, the quarters can differ as much as a quarter inch from side to side on the same car, and I've seen 1/2" differences from one car to another. The factory body tolerances were not that great, they only worked from the chassis measurements they listed in the manual.

 

[1930]

It IS something you need.

If your car got hit hard enough that you need to adjust the fender mounting holes, ie, the inner fenders, it got hit hard enough that you need to put it up on stands, level it, drop the plumb lines and check the frame rails. Because if it got hit hard enough to move the inner fenders, it got hit hard enough to move the rails. If the rails are straight, awesome, you have a solid foundation to work with. But you can't have the fender mounting holes out of whack without having other stuff out of whack, the radiator support, the cowl, the frame rails, something. And you can't properly square the radiator support if you're not squaring it to straight frame rails.

I'm sorry, but, if it got hit hard enough to worry about the fender mounts, you have to start from the beginning. Because that's what those diagrams are for. You have to start from the rails. If the rails are straight, you move to the radiator support. But you have to check that against the rails, so, you have to check the rails first. When the radiator support is square, you can move on to the inner fenders, because you have to check those by referencing the radiator support. If you use the measurements in the factory service manual, you can work step by step, referencing and projecting your way through the entire chassis and body.

And, like I said, if you pulled those measurements off the car sitting on a couple of rim stands sitting in the dirt in a wrecking yard, they're pretty much meaningless. Because in stock form you can change all the body gaps on these cars just by jacking the car up in the front. In order for those measurements to be useful they'd need to be taken on a car that was leveled and square, and that car sitting in the yard is definitely not leveled, and we have no idea if it's square or not. And that doesn't even consider that cars on this website, original cars with no damage, are frequently found to be as much as a half inch different on body locations than other original, undamaged cars. It comes up all the time fitting wheels and tires, the quarters can differ as much as a quarter inch from side to side on the same car, and I've seen 1/2" differences from one car to another. The factory body tolerances were not that great, they only worked from the chassis measurements they listed in the manual.

Maybe you misunderstood the reason for starting the thread, it wasnt an attempt to teach you or anyone else structural analysis/structural repair, the info I posted is most useful in the right hands assuming that person knows what he or she is doing.

Teaching this sort of thing cant be done online but you make quite a few good points above. Thanks

 

[72bluNblu]

Maybe you misunderstood the reason for starting the thread, it wasnt an attempt to teach you or anyone else structural analysis/structural repair, the info I posted is most useful in the right hands assuming that person knows what he or she is doing.

Teaching this sort of thing cant be done online but you make quite a few good points above. Thanks

I’m sorry, but I’m just going to continue to disagree because you’re going about this incorrectly.

If the measurements you posted above were taken from the car sitting on rim stands chucked in random places under the body while the car sits in the dirt with no suspension etc, they’re useless. Because those measurements will change compared to a car that’s been leveled. Heck they’ll change compared to a car sitting on its suspension. When you lift the front end of one of these cars with a floor jack you can watch the chassis flex. For the measurements to be accurate, the car has to be leveled first while being supported on its suspension points.

And someone that knows what he/she is doing will know that. That’s the first step. You level the chassis on flat ground and support it at the suspension points. Then you proceed, whether it’s to check the trueness of the chassis against the factory measurements or pull body measurements from a straight car (which you can’t know unless you checked it).

I’m trying to teach chassis/structure analysis and repair because you have to know a few of those procedures to even take useful measurements.

 

[1930]

I’m sorry, but I’m just going to continue to disagree because you’re going about this incorrectly.

If the measurements you posted above were taken from the car sitting on rim stands chucked in random places under the body while the car sits in the dirt with no suspension etc, they’re useless. Because those measurements will change compared to a car that’s been leveled. Heck they’ll change compared to a car sitting on its suspension. When you lift the front end of one of these cars with a floor jack you can watch the chassis flex. For the measurements to be accurate, the car has to be leveled first while being supported on its suspension points.

And someone that knows what he/she is doing will know that. That’s the first step. You level the chassis on flat ground and support it at the suspension points. Then you proceed, whether it’s to check the trueness of the chassis against the factory measurements or pull body measurements from a straight car (which you can’t know unless you checked it).

I’m trying to teach chassis/structure analysis and repair because you have to know a few of those procedures to even take useful measurements.

Not to be confrontational but you have no idea whatsoever how I am going about the repair, nor do you know my level of education in the field, you are behind a keyboard assuming too many things and because of that you havent taken the opportunity to learn from me possibly a different way of looking at the situation. ( or asked me respectfully how I plan to go about the repair ) ( and then cut me too pieces if thats what turns you on )

I would have been more than happy to give you a step by step with pictures procedure of the repair but at this point Im not gonna bother cause I get the impression that at some point in your life you just stopped learning and assumed you knew almost everything there was too know about anything.

You say the measurements I posted are useless, that dosent hurt my feelings cause I get why you are assuming they are useless.

I get and in fact agree with the majority of your above posts, I dont know what your background is but it isnt necessarily googling things and coming up with half baked replies in an effort to make your fellow A bodiers think your intelligent, you appear to have a certain degree of hands on knowledge but too what extent I wont even try and guess cause it is a fact that I simply do not care. AKA its none of my business!

Ill end my part in this thread with saying dont assume so much, ( ask questions ) give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes and your never too old to learn.

Have a nice weekend

 

[72bluNblu]

Not to be confrontational but you have no idea whatsoever how I am going about the repair, nor do you know my level of education in the field, you are behind a keyboard assuming too many things and because of that you havent taken the opportunity to learn from me possibly a different way of looking at the situation. ( or asked me respectfully how I plan to go about the repair ) ( and then cut me too pieces if thats what turns you on )

I would have been more than happy to give you a step by step with pictures procedure of the repair but at this point Im not gonna bother cause I get the impression that at some point in your life you just stopped learning and assumed you knew almost everything there was too know about anything.

You say the measurements I posted are useless, that dosent hurt my feelings cause I get why you are assuming they are useless.

I get and in fact agree with the majority of your above posts, I dont know what your background is but it isnt necessarily googling things and coming up with half baked replies in an effort to make your fellow A bodiers think your intelligent, you appear to have a certain degree of hands on knowledge but too what extent I wont even try and guess cause it is a fact that I simply do not care. AKA its none of my business!

Ill end my part in this thread with saying dont assume so much, ( ask questions ) give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes and your never too old to learn.

Have a nice weekend

I'm a former Aerospace engineer that started restoring cars in my father's restoration shop when I was like 10. I've been working on cars for over 28 years by that math, mostly as a hobbyist as my old man retired from restoration awhile back. I've straightened chassis's, performed front clip swaps, and cut, clipped and even completely replaced frame rails on concourse level show cars. I've helped to design, and do all of the chassis construction, for Formula SAE cars for competition when I was studying engineering. That's my background. I haven't stopped learning, but I have learned that some of the old-school ways of doing things, like leveling a chassis and dropping plumb bobs and chalk lines, are actually some of the best (and simplest) ways to do things. Absent of course some kind of laser level frame table, but who has one of those?

The beef I have is you're posting numbers you pulled from a 44 year old car that you found in a junkyard, sitting in the dirt, supported on some rims haphazardly placed underneath it, and passing them off as some kind of standard to compare to because you didn't use a tape measure to pull the numbers. You have no idea the history of the car you measured, it wasn't checked for square, or even leveled. You have no idea if it's chassis measurements are in spec, because you didn't check. Unless of course you checked all that and haven't mentioned that, but you haven't said you did. And yet, you post your measurements like people can use them to check to see if their car is straight, or right, or correct, or whatever. Like if their car matches those numbers they're good to go. Those numbers are meaningless. You can put a floor jack under one corner of these cars and change all of those numbers. You have no idea if they actually match a car that's been leveled and checked against the factory chassis specs.

If your car matches those numbers and the fenders fit, great, that's awesome. But having those numbers isn't any more "correct" than having a car with proper body panel gaps. If you have a car with the proper body panel gaps and diagonals that are off those measurements by a half inch, it means nothing. That car could be straight, yours might not be. So, what do the numbers mean? Nothing really. You're no further ahead, or more correct, than someone that put a fender on their car, realized it didn't fit right because the gaps were off, and adjusted the inner fender until the gaps were right.