Hey Cylinder heads guys- advice needed

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Here are some pictures of W2 exhaust rockers compared to standard small block - both iron and Crane/Mopar roller rockers. The W2 rockers are a little longer that standard small block rockers. Order left to right are standard, W2, standard, W2 (blue)

I tried to use a set of 16 W2 exhaust roller rockers on a small block and they were rolling off the car end of the intake valve. I always read the W2 exhaust rockers were interchangeable but now I have my doubts.

This may not be the main issue with the current set up but it may be another to look at as you try to get things straightened out.

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Rocket said:
Here are some pictures of W2 exhaust rockers compared to standard small block - both iron and Crane/Mopar roller rockers. The W2 rockers are a little longer that standard small block rockers. Order left to right are standard, W2, standard, W2 (blue)

I tried to use a set of 16 W2 exhaust roller rockers on a small block and they were rolling off the car end of the intake valve. I always read the W2 exhaust rockers were interchangeable but now I have my doubts.

This may not be the main issue with the current set up but it may be another to look at as you try to get things straightened out.

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That’s great info Rocket! Thanks for posting the pictures.
By the way, the shafts I bought from you are great!
 
B3RE said:
Give me a call Tuesday and we'll talk about it. Multiple issues from what I see.
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Exactly.
What rocker are those?
2nd thing I thought was have you flip those blocks around to see if it brings the rocker back..but then are these long valves and his rocker stand setup for a stock stem height 1.903-1.937 iirr. Just dropping it would not fix rocker being too far back, he needs one of your geometry kits!
 
Just talk to Mike. I am glad he's involved now. He will hook a brother up. Whatever he thinks, I would, I would do.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Just talk to Mike. I am glad he's involved now. He will hook a brother up. Whatever he thinks, I would, I would do.
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Yeah, I will be calling Mike Tuesday morning. I bought a kit from him for my last little project. Top notch.
 
SSG_Karg said:
Yeah, I will be calling Mike Tuesday morning. I bought a kit from him for my last little project. Top notch.
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I wish every vendor was like him. A lot could stand to learn from him.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
The amount of shrouding I'm seeing ...looks like they were closed chamber at one point.
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I don’t believe so. From my research I figured these are the second generation W2s, identified by the Mopar logo under the exhaust ports, the dual exhaust bolt pattern, and the lack of reinforcement ribs around the lower head bolt holes. Pretty sure they were born as open chamber as the eyebrows are still kinda rough from casting.
 
SSG_Karg said:
I don’t believe so. From my research I figured these are the second generation W2s, identified by the Mopar logo under the exhaust ports, the dual exhaust bolt pattern, and the lack of reinforcement ribs around the lower head bolt holes. Pretty sure they were born as open chamber as the eyebrows are still kinda rough from casting.
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The finish is diff on the small side,you can see tool marking.
 
It’s easy to “armchair quarterback” the job looking at the finished heads, but without seeing exactly what was there to start with, and hearing what the conversations were between the guy working on the heads and the owner....... we don’t really know for sure why they are as they are.
No, they’re not “right”, but sometimes there is a back story(and sometimes there isn’t and it’s just a poorly done job).

Fundamentally, I see two separate issues.
One is the length on the exhaust rocker, the other is the tip height disparity.

Without seeing the heads in person I can’t say for sure how I’d go about tackling the second issue...... tip height.
The “easiest” way would be to order a set of valves that are made however much shorter they need to be to match the intake tip height.

Another option would be to install ex seats to bring the valves back up in the chamber, however depending on how the current relief work was done in chamber, you might end up with a seat standing proud in the chamber to bring the valve that much higher........ not good for flow.

You might be able to get it suitably “close enough” by grinding a little off the exhaust tip, and lowering the intake seat a bit.

Again, without being able to look everything over in person, it’s just conjecture on how it could be rectified.

For the rocker, You could remove the exhaust spring, replace it with a checking spring, and open the valve so the tip was even with the intake and see if that solved the rocker contact issue....... but by looking at how far off it looks in the pic, I doubt that’ll be enough of a change to where I gave it the green light.
But it’s free and easy to check it....... and it would help give some direction on how to proceed.

Edit- looking at the chamber pics a little more, it doesn’t really appear as though the exhaust seat is “sunk” from excessive cutting.
The intake valve looks like it’s sitting on a seat that’s not cut big enough for the valve diameter(like a 2.08 valve sitting on a 2.02 seat), and it has a pretty thick margin as well(both of these things would produce a shorter tip height).
This is where the needing to have parts right in front of you for a real assessment comes in.
 
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I don't see how the installed height can be a single value when the valve tips are not the same height, unless you used shims under the spring or?

As others noted, that rocker arm location is bad....my guess is the pivot point needs to be relocated. Further measuring would confirm that. The good thing is you have some freedom with the milled rocker stands that will allow you to fabricate the proper blocks.
 
If the tip height variance is going to be addressed/corrected....... that needs to be done before going after the rocker geometry.
 
Krooser said:
Same as mine...
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I've had econo 810's in front of me that were rough cast on the shallow side of the chamber like a factory head.
Are yours machined looking like OP's and if so are they 1 st gen or what yr? Did op mill his stands off, cause econos have stands.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I've had econo 810's in front of me that were rough cast on the shallow side of the chamber like a factory head.
Are yours machined looking like OP's and if so are they 1 st gen or what yr? Did op mill his stands off, cause econos have stands.
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I have a set of early 810’s in the shop, and they have the cast pad.

I *think* it was when the W2 was re-introduced I whatever year that was (I had the chance to buy bare W2’s for 99 bucks each, and my dad and I talked each other out of buying any because we thought the new heads coming out would be all that much better...Yup...I’m that dumb) and again, IIRC that’s when they started machining the pad rather than casting it.

Also...just thinking about it...that was the same time they released the closed chamber W2, and they used the same casting for the OC head and that was another reason they just machined it.

My memory is sketchy on this stuff, but I *think* that is pretty close.
 
PRH said:
It’s easy to “armchair quarterback” the job looking at the finished heads, but without seeing exactly what was there to start with, and hearing what the conversations were between the guy working on the heads and the owner....... we don’t really know for sure why they are as they are.
No, they’re not “right”, but sometimes there is a back story(and sometimes there isn’t and it’s just a poorly done job).

Fundamentally, I see two separate issues.
One is the length on the exhaust rocker, the other is the tip height disparity.

Without seeing the heads in person I can’t say for sure how I’d go about tackling the second issue...... tip height.
The “easiest” way would be to order a set of valves that are made however much shorter they need to be to match the intake tip height.

Another option would be to install ex seats to bring the valves back up in the chamber, however depending on how the current relief work was done in chamber, you might end up with a seat standing proud in the chamber to bring the valve that much higher........ not good for flow.

You might be able to get it suitably “close enough” by grinding a little off the exhaust tip, and lowering the intake seat a bit.

Again, without being able to look everything over in person, it’s just conjecture on how it could be rectified.

For the rocker, You could remove the exhaust spring, replace it with a checking spring, and open the valve so the tip was even with the intake and see if that solved the rocker contact issue....... but by looking at how far off it looks in the pic, I doubt that’ll be enough of a change to where I gave it the green light.
But it’s free and easy to check it....... and it would help give some direction on how to proceed.

Edit- looking at the chamber pics a little more, it doesn’t really appear as though the exhaust seat is “sunk” from excessive cutting.
The intake valve looks like it’s sitting on a seat that’s not cut big enough for the valve diameter(like a 2.08 valve sitting on a 2.02 seat), and it has a pretty thick margin as well(both of these things would produce a shorter tip height).
This is where the needing to have parts right in front of you for a real assessment comes in.
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Great advice here. I’m definitely going to call B3 Mike tomorrow and get his take on things. Adding that to what I’ve seen here I will most likely take the heads to another shop for inspection/advice.
The original shop that did the valve job was just a NAPA, not a high performance engine shop. I will take these to the shop that did the balancing for my stroker as they are much more performance oriented. After hearing their thoughts I’ll add it all up and make a decision on how to move forward.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I've had econo 810's in front of me that were rough cast on the shallow side of the chamber like a factory head.
Are yours machined looking like OP's and if so are they 1 st gen or what yr? Did op mill his stands off, cause econos have stands.
Click to expand...

I searched that casting number online and if I am reading it right, they could have come on either open or closed chamber. So it's still possible they could have been machined open. ......IF I am reading that information correctly.
 
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