383 440 swap. Same flywheel?

[adriver]

These are the facts as I know them.
Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.
383 was original 1967 auto car that was changed to four speed by someone a long time ago.
I'm sure this is s 1967 383 engine.
I'm swapping in 1977 440 cast crank engine.
I'm guessing the 383 was internal ballanced and I'll need a new fly wheel.
This is what I've found so far.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=189291&highlight=383+crank+ballanced
(This thread doesn't really help. More about engine build)

and

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/motor/36.html

All early crankshafts are steel forgings. In 1971 Chrysler used a cast crank in low performance 383 engines. The use of cast iron crankshafts in 440's began in 1972. All cast cranks and certain forged steel cranks are externally balanced. These require the use of specially balanced harmonic dampeners, torque converters and flywheels. The appropriate components must be used to ensure that the reciprocating assembly is in balance. If an internally balanced crank is used with an external balanced converter or dampener (or vise- versa) a severe out of balance condition will occur. Externally balanced crankshafts can be internally balanced by adding a heavy metal called Mallory metal to the crank throws. 440's equipped with 3x2 barrel carbs were also externally balanced to compensate for heavier rods. They require the use of externally balanced dampeners and converters or flywheels.

 

[Mrmopartech]

You are in luck,you can use the 383 flywheel on the 440 cast crank motor,BUT,you need to re-drill the flywheel to counter balance the unit for the cast crank.Now you ask your self,well how do I do that,and where do I drill it.There are 2-3 holes to be drilled from the spec sheet and needs to be done by a machinist.You can find a good machine shop in most city,s but how has the spec sheet,the answer,I am one of the few that has it,mrmopartech
Email me at: [email protected] or call me at 450 424 0445.

 

[adriver]

Email sent. Appreciate any other imput from someone that has bought one.
This is like so many things MOPAR.
You know what you need, but who do you order it from to be sure and get the right thing?
Another example.
I'm going to use Polygraphite on the front end.
I've had good luck with it.
A gazillion miles and counting on one car.
If my memory is correct, PST is infamous for sending the wrong strut rod size bushings.
But that my not be their fault.
It's Chrysler and who knows what might actually be on a car?

 

[Moparparts]

The first thing you need to be aware of is that that 77 440 engine will more than likely not have the crankshaft drilled for use with a 4-speed sometime in 73 or 74 they quit drilling them on most applications although some trunk motors where still drilled.

 

[adriver]

Well, it apears that I may have more than one problem.
The hole in my cast crank 440 appears to be a hair over 13/16 wide and around 1/2 deep. I stuck a piece of PVC pipe in it to measure the width.
Although the hole does taper inside it. So the width is not uniform for the entire depth of the hole.
The picture I took with the bolt is from the OUTER AREA just for reference. (Plus I didn't know what I was looking for.)
I say the hole is 1/2 deep from the ACTUAL top or edge of the hole further inside the end of the crank.
Hopefully this will tell us if I need to do anything for the manual trans imput shaft which is behind the current 1967 383. I've gotten some excellent information from this thread.
Including a phone call from someone very helpful in Canada.

 

[bakertodd]

Don`t know if this might help. I have an externally balanced 440 cast crank w/ Torqueflite in my Duster, has what I think is an aftermarket front balancer and the factory low stall balanced converter - soon to be replaced. I have the weld-on weights to balance the rear for a new unbalanced converter but I believe B&M makes a flexplate for cast cranks only (#10237) which may be a better solution for the rear, B&M could tell you if it would work for manual trans as well....Anyone else familiar with this issue?

 

[adriver]

I'm thinking a "register mounted bearing" may solve the hole problem.
But not the whole problem. I'll need to get this thing apart to find out more about the flywheel balance issue. And imput shaft length.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=65655.0

More to follow after the front end and brakes are sorted out.
PST is going to get an order soon.

 

[JohnRR]

I'm thinking a "register mounted bearing" may solve the hole problem.
But not the whole problem. I'll need to get this thing apart to find out more about the flywheel balance issue. And imput shaft length.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=65655.0

More to follow after the front end and brakes are sorted out.
PST is going to get an order soon.

Yes you can use the register mounted pilot bushing/bearing , be prepared to trim the input shaft of the trans as the hole is probably not deep enough .

you are going to need to have the flywheel balanced for external balance .

 

[adriver]

Well folks, I’ve got the 383 and four speed out of the car.
This is what I’m planning to try. Won’t hurt to try.
I’ve “only” got 600 bucks in the cast crank 440 from the junkyard man, and I’m hopeful that this will work and keep it a bucks down swap.

What you are looking at now are pictures of the 383 with its flywheel and a rough mock up of a fixture to drill the 440-cast crank for the four speed input shaft.
The 440 has a hole started (see earlier pics) but just not deep enough.
I’ll swap the flywheel over to the 440 and use it for a perpendicular surface to try it and get things lined up.
Weld the pipe nipple on the angle iron. Maybe back it up and use the flywheel as a true surface.
In other words, it won’t be as far in as in the pictures.
Or maybe come up with something else for a “pilot”.
The four speed input shaft is ¾ and that’s the largest drill I’ve got on hand with a ½ step down shaft for a hand drill
But if I can get slightly larger bit, that would be better to accommodate errors and allow for a ¾ shaft size.
Ideally one of those magnetic base portable drill presses would work too.
But I don’t have one. And who knows what a rental store would have or cost.

Than maybe I’ll use a register bushing for the input shaft instead of a “pilot bushing” inside the crank.
There was some good info on the “pilot bushings” in the dodgecharger.com link, but I don’t know yet what size pilot my crankshaft may be drilled for.
Or if is.
Maybe it is drilled for a pilot bushing but not reamed, like they said.


If this works, I’ll get the flywheel balanced like people have said for the cast crank and I may be good to go.

Thoughts, pro or con?

(I hope to also sell a 69 383 sometime in the future. Looked up the numbers

 

[adriver]

To review.
The car came with a 383 and 833 of unknown origin. Who ever put it together shortened the input shaft somewhat. I would think it is because the 383 was not drilled deep enough.
They also did not put a pilot bushing in the crankshaft.
My intention is to use the transmission as it is with the register bearing, 53009180.
(The register bushing is not available anymore. 4338876)
I used the 383 with flywheel to make a fixture to drill the 440-cast crank for what remains of the input shaft.
I found a bit of scrap tube with an ID of 7/8 (.875) I used copper pipe with an OD of .875 as a guide to line it up with the existing .875 hole in the 383, clamped the tube (see previous pictures of rough idea) and tacked it on angle iron.
Pardon the welding. I didn’t want to risk burning into the thin tube.

Then I transferred the “jig” to the 440 and started drilling. The long copper pipe was used as a depth gage. Note the scribe marks on the brown copper pipe for depth measurment.
I take one at the top of the hole and one at the bottom shoulder.
I bought this 7/8 bit. I saw it marked “USA” in the picture before ordering it.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TREZRC/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1"]Amazon.com: Champion XG12-7/8 Black Gold 7/8-Inch Silver and Deming Drill Bit: Home Improvement[/ame]
Champion XG12-7/8 seems to be a good bit. I didn’t want to risk China stuff.

My idea is that this hole will certainly not interfere with the input shaft using a register bearing even if it is missed drilled. That was suggested as an option. So the hole is larger than the .750 input shaft.
But I do not think that it will be the case that it is not centered fairly well.

And I was trying to get the hole size close enough to the bushing size of .940 OD. (That is what the parts list it as).
If later, if I wanted to use an input shaft that hasn’t been shortened, I hope the hole could be reamed up as necessary to accomidate a bushing.
Or the stock bushing OD could always be turned down a hair to fit the .875 hole.

Now my dilemma is this. The pilot bushing length is given as .880 in the parts specs.
How deep does the hole need to be to accommodate a bushing IF later, I decide to use a pilot bushing instead of a register bearing?
In other words I don’t have a good shaft length to go by and can’t find dimensions on the web. How deep does the hole need to be? I’m assuming the installed pilot bushing would be flush with the end of the hole.
I would like to drill the hole deep enough this time for that and not have to do it later IF I used an uncut input shaft with an appropriately sized bushing.
I’m about at .8 something deep now.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

There is a good reason why you can't or shouldn't drill the 440 cast crank to acept the 4sd imput shaft. in the early 70's i worked at a shop that did all the repair work on Hillsborough county sheriffs cars. We bought rebuilt engines from a company named Wheeler Engines. They had the bright idea to drill all the 400/440 cast crank engines so they only had to carry one part number for auto's or manual shift cars. But it turned out to be a bad idea. The cast crank castings were so pourous that oil would leak thru tha cast cranks and out of the drilled holes. I was unlucky enough to install one of these engines and went through hell trying to figure out why this new motor had a rear main leak. I figured it out and by then Wheeler had a recall on all of these drilled cast crank engines.

 

[adriver]

Opps.
Well, thanks for the info.
Now if I get a puddle, I'll know why.
Better quit while I might still be ahead.

 

[adriver]

I consulted with my mechanical engineer friend at work on this to get a second opinion on the porosity of cast. He was of the opinion that any transfer of oil shouldn’t be enough to cause concern and suggested glyptal as a prophylactic measure, just in case.
So that is what I’ll do since with the present planned installation, the hole is not to be use for a pilot bushing and the input shaft will not touch it
In theory. The hole is 7/8 and the shaft is ¾.

In future, I’m thinking that even if I use a pilot bushing with glyptal sealing the bottom, perhaps having a little oil seepage for the sintered brass bushing might not hurt. (Tongue in cheek here)

But the question comes to my mind.
Does this mean that a cast crank can not be used with a 4 speed?
Other than a shortened imput shaft how did the factory do it?
Or did they not do it?
If I had to guess, is that what the register bushing/bearing was invented for?

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

The problem was the castings were so Porous, the oil leaked through it. And it was more than a tin leak.

 

[gregpurcell]

I realize that this post is 6 months old, but A STEEL CRANK FROM A 66-72 440 WILL BOLT DIRECTLY INTO YOUR LATER BLOCK!!! There are aftermarket steel cranks that will too! THEN your 383 flywheel will fit with no mods. You use the older harmonic balancer and it's all internally balanced just like the 67-72 motors.. You won't have to waste time or lop the end off an expensive 4 speed transmission!

What you are doing is trying to put a SADDLE on a COW! If you engineer it long enough, you MAY get it on..you MAY even get to RIDE it..BUT IT AIN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!

 

[adriver]

Hope the storms didn't hurt anyone yesterday.
I'm back for more experienced help.

Here’s my conundrum.

I’ve already got 600 dollars in what is supposed to be a “low mileage” 440 RV engine. Bought it before I knew about the cast crank pilot hole issue.

I’ve cleaned up, changed over the oil pickup and pan from my donor 69 383,

I’ve got the input shaft and register bearing issues solved for the cast crank 440 so I can try it.

I’ve got the neutral 143-tooth flywheel off of the 383 to go on it along with the pressure plate.

I’ve been told by an engine guy who I asked to drill the flywheel to balance it for the 440 that it doesn’t always turn out so good as far as being balance correctly.

If I drill my flywheel and it doesn’t work or IF the engine turns out be no good, I’ve “ruined” a perfectly good neutral balance flywheel.



And IF the engine turns out to need work, I would give it to someone and have them put a forged crank in it anyway and then I would need a new flywheel because I would have “ruined” the flywheel that I have.

So my question is does this work?

FWCB017 FLYWHEEL COUNTER BALANCE WEIGHT 383-400-440 CAST CRANK
Details


Flywheel counter balance weight, used to convert McLeod flywheel FW102 or FW202 from neutral balance to 383-400-440 motor with cast crankshaft/external balance. Weight package with mounting screws.

Price: $29.95







I would buy it and the flywheel and try it. It won’t bolt on my stock flywheel, right? I don’t see any extra holes on mine.



At worst case I would have to perfectly good neutral balance wheel which is one more than I actually need.

 

[adriver]

n

I realize that this post is 6 months old, but A STEEL CRANK FROM A 66-72 440 WILL BOLT DIRECTLY INTO YOUR LATER BLOCK!!! There are aftermarket steel cranks that will too! THEN your 383 flywheel will fit with no mods. You use the older harmonic balancer and it's all internally balanced just like the 67-72 motors.. You won't have to waste time or lop the end off an expensive 4 speed transmission!

What you are doing is trying to put a SADDLE on a COW! If you engineer it long enough, you MAY get it on..you MAY even get to RIDE it..BUT IT AIN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!

Damn, Greg.
I cut and pasted before reading what you wrote. OK to be late. You can't keep up with everything we dummies put on this board. We have lives, right? And hail storms have happened to me.
My transmission has already been sort of "lopped". So that's not an issue. And IF the engine doesn't leak........but I'd have to put it in and run it to find out. And that's time wasted.
Ok, so I need source, price and a person to put a new crank if that is what I do. One that I can trust since I don't have the time, space or equipment to do it "right" the first time.
I checked a few months ago and it looks like forged aftermarket cranks are almost a grand. So I ruled it out then. Is that right?
Not real cheap, but not an arm and leg either.
But now maybe I could try it if there are suggestions.
Good, trustworthy (mopar) machine shops are what I'm looking for in the west Georgia area then.
But I might go as far as Savannah (smile) or Alabama would be good.

MOOOOOOOO.

 

[Old Man Mopar]

A tip that works:

If you have an area of porous casting leaking oil, clean with aerosol contact
cleaner and allow to dry. Get your wife's clear nail polish and paint the area.
I doubt that it will ever leak again. Will work on air leaks (from the inside) on
alloy wheels too.

 

[adriver]

Just a follow up on this old thread.
This will work and save going into the engine.
Did for me anyway.
I've been busy with body work and other things.
I finally got the engine in the car.
The engine is smooth as silk.
Rather than risk a machine shop, I called Brewer's Performance and bought a flywheel.
My theory was they would know exactly how to balance a MOPAR flywheel.
People do it all the time with torque converters I think.
Why would a flywheel be any different? It is just a matter of being sure to get someone that knows what to do.
So for the price of an externally balanced flywheel I've got a good set up.
The transmission shaft had been shorted just a little anyway and I used a red "glyptal" type sealant in the hole with a register bearing.