What cam should I use for 408 Stroker EFI

[Ed Jackson]

Hey guys, I am having a 408 stroker built for my 66 Cuda 4speed. My question is what are the pros and cons of using EFI, and would that change the cam. Could i build it for a carb, then later add the EFI, or is that a completely different set up. It would be nice to have the option of either or. The articles I have seen and read would have me believe you can install one of these units on any engine and it will start to read the motor and automatically tune itself to the best performance. I would like to hear any opinions or ideas, this is obviously a street build, just looking to have plenty of that low end torque for the fish. I would also like to hear what brand EFI is the best all around unit.

 

[jbc426]

Hey guys, I am having a 408 stroker built for my 66 Cuda 4speed. My question is what are the pros and cons of using EFI, and would that change the cam. Could i build it for a carb, then later add the EFI, or is that a completely different set up. It would be nice to have the option of either or. The articles I have seen and read would have me believe you can install one of these units on any engine and it will start to read the motor and automatically tune itself to the best performance. I would like to hear any opinions or ideas, this is obviously a street build, just looking to have plenty of that low end torque for the fish. I would also like to hear what brand EFI is the best all around unit.

You can use an LA style ignition on a Magnum, add an intake and carb and use an electric fuel pump to run the motor like any other carbed motor. There are cams suited specifically for carbed applications and EFI applications and some that will work for either. I always consult Dave Hughes regarding the best cam for my intended use.

Cam selection is based on your combination and intended use. The factory cams are a compromise of mileage and all around low rpm performance. They work reasonably well, but are easily improved on.

The factory EFI can be used as is for stock-like performance, or you can re-flash the computer to adjust the system to work better than stock with increased fuel delivery and different ignition curves to match aftermarket cams and such.

The pro's of EFI are easy starting, consistent performance increased driving performance and fuel efficiency etc. The Con's are increased initial installation cost & complexity, learning curve and the cost to reflash the ECM to suit your needs.

I went EFI on my Magnum install, and was able to reflash it to match several various configurations including using it on my 408" stoker. I was running a rather conservative cam with 214 degrees duration on a 110 degree lobe centerline and am about to install a slightly larger cam with 234 degrees duration on a 108 degree lobe centerline. According to Dave this will bump my motor up to just over 510+ crank hp. I would never go back to carb having experienced the benefits of EFI. I will be reflashing the ECM again to adjust the system for the bigger cam.

 

[TrailBeast]

The Fast EZ throttle body injection systems are nice also, and don't cost a lot for what you get out of them.
Reflashes of the OE injection systems isn't cheap, and the Fast EZ systems are self learning and self tuning as well.
Might want to balance a couple of reflashes against the cost of one of those system.
Also know that one of the reasons Magnum engines last so long and wear so little is due to the EFI regulating the fuel to ONLY what is needed at the moment (unlike carbs) that dump a lot of fuel in the cylinders that the engine may not need at the time.

 

[Ed Jackson]

delete

thanks for the insight, i was thinking about installing a FAST EFI syst

The Fast EZ throttle body injection systems are nice also, and don't cost a lot for what you get out of them.
Reflashes of the OE injection systems isn't cheap, and the Fast EZ systems are self learning and self tuning as well.
Might want to balance a couple of reflashes against the cost of one of those system.
Also know that one of the reasons Magnum engines last so long and wear so little is due to the EFI regulating the fuel to ONLY what is needed at the moment (unlike carbs) that dump a lot of fuel in the cylinders that the engine may not need at the time.

I am not sure how to go about looking for a reflash OE injection system, please help me with a little more info on that route.

 

[TrailBeast]

Here is a write up about how and why reflashes need to be done.
Auto PCM ECM ECU All Auto Computers
I'm also finding a reflash is .5 (1/2 hr) on the labor time at a dealership service center.
Also seeing Mopar owners saying that you can also just disconnect the battery for 15-20, re connect it and let the computer re learn with the changes in hardware.

Google is your best friend right now.

 

[magnummopar]

Here is a write up about how and why reflashes need to be done.
Auto PCM ECM ECU All Auto Computers
I'm also finding a reflash is .5 (1/2 hr) on the labor time at a dealership service center.
Also seeing Mopar owners saying that you can also just disconnect the battery for 15-20, re connect it and let the computer re learn with the changes in hardware.

Google is your best friend right now.

Google is 97% full of ****. A dealer CAN NOT flash a JTEC controller(mopar pcm) for performance related issues. All they can do is down load the latest "death flash" that pertains to emissions, they do not do performance flashes. The disconnecting of battery is pointless as pcm will relearn on its own after 30 key cycles. What its capable of relearning is for very simple mods like aftermarket cold air filter or maybe a better flowing muffler but will not stray too far from fuel curve of flash. Our stage I cam is a great example. You can install it with stock springs etc. A 5.2 pcm will run good with the change but a 5.9 will not. 5.9 has too much fuel and not enough timing so it will still be a dog. If you were to install the 5.2 pcm on the 5.9 with that cam, you will get noticeable improvements. If you were to get either pcm flashed for cam, there is probably 20HP 40TQ over not having it flashed. Its all about optimizing programming for your particular application.
That said, you can get a cam that will work with carb and then have FI system installed that will work with it. This is not true for all cams, just some grinds.
There are 3 options:
1 carb
2 factory multi injection
3 after market throttle body injection

Factory injection is great in that its multi port, almost free and works great. Not having to play with a little box and figure out settings for idle, accel pump, WOT and timing makes it much simpler. You simply pay a guy like FRP or us to do all the programming for you then upload it through hand held into ALDL plug. You can also have your pcm bench flashed and avoid downloading yourself. If you do a hand held, you can get upgrade flashed via email, bench flash has to be physically returned to reflash.
Aftermarket throttle body is cheaper than it used to be with FI Tech and Holly Sniper both having systems under $1000. They do not have same performance nor reliability(still to be proven) but are considered simpler by many. If you are sharp with electronics and have a decent understanding of fuel injection than you can make adjustments in your drive way for things like cam, heads etc. there is a GIANT thread on FI Tech here and you should read it to see what issues people are having and how they deal with them. If it sounds too much, go factory or if you want easy and reliable, go multi port.
Either way, start off right and get a pump in tank fuel system so you can avoid external pump issues like overheating, NOISE and generally not as reliable. Putting pump in tank keeps pump cool, they puch much better than they suck and no problems with leaks on factory style tank.
I would be happy to discuss cam grinds with you but I will tell you I disagree with Hughes on cam design. We work directly with Jim at RacerBrown, one off the countrys best Mopar cam designers and grinders. We both believe that the age old designs Hughes sells(and all the big guys) are just that, ancient designs from the days of super crappy exhaust flow. I typically dont discuss my cam theory here as it just creates a huge **** storm. Feel free to look us up on the web at magnummopar. or pm for shop #. I will be happy to explain pros and cons of each way to do FI. We offer nice discounts off web prices for FABO guys and are cheaper than scummit and jegs on most things. We also know what works and doesnt unlike scummit or jegs. We have been building magnums since 92, doing magnum engine swaps since 98 and have run my own performance shop for last 25 years. If we havent tried it on our cars, we dont sell it. We drive magnums everyday. Evan

 

[TrailBeast]

Google is 97% full of ****. A dealer CAN NOT flash a JTEC controller(mopar pcm) for performance related issues. All they can do is down load the latest "death flash" that pertains to emissions, they do not do performance flashes. The disconnecting of battery is pointless as pcm will relearn on its own after 30 key cycles. What its capable of relearning is for very simple mods like aftermarket cold air filter or maybe a better flowing muffler but will not stray too far from fuel curve of flash. Our stage I cam is a great example. You can install it with stock springs etc. A 5.2 pcm will run good with the change but a 5.9 will not. 5.9 has too much fuel and not enough timing so it will still be a dog. If you were to install the 5.2 pcm on the 5.9 with that cam, you will get noticeable improvements. If you were to get either pcm flashed for cam, there is probably 20HP 40TQ over not having it flashed. Its all about optimizing programming for your particular application.
That said, you can get a cam that will work with carb and then have FI system installed that will work with it. This is not true for all cams, just some grinds.
There are 3 options:
1 carb
2 factory multi injection
3 after market throttle body injection

Factory injection is great in that its multi port, almost free and works great. Not having to play with a little box and figure out settings for idle, accel pump, WOT and timing makes it much simpler. You simply pay a guy like FRP or us to do all the programming for you then upload it through hand held into ALDL plug. You can also have your pcm bench flashed and avoid downloading yourself. If you do a hand held, you can get upgrade flashed via email, bench flash has to be physically returned to reflash.
Aftermarket throttle body is cheaper than it used to be with FI Tech and Holly Sniper both having systems under $1000. They do not have same performance nor reliability(still to be proven) but are considered simpler by many. If you are sharp with electronics and have a decent understanding of fuel injection than you can make adjustments in your drive way for things like cam, heads etc. there is a GIANT thread on FI Tech here and you should read it to see what issues people are having and how they deal with them. If it sounds too much, go factory or if you want easy and reliable, go multi port.
Either way, start off right and get a pump in tank fuel system so you can avoid external pump issues like overheating, NOISE and generally not as reliable. Putting pump in tank keeps pump cool, they puch much better than they suck and no problems with leaks on factory style tank.
I would be happy to discuss cam grinds with you but I will tell you I disagree with Hughes on cam design. We work directly with Jim at RacerBrown, one off the countrys best Mopar cam designers and grinders. We both believe that the age old designs Hughes sells(and all the big guys) are just that, ancient designs from the days of super crappy exhaust flow. I typically dont discuss my cam theory here as it just creates a huge **** storm. Feel free to look us up on the web at magnummopar. or pm for shop #. I will be happy to explain pros and cons of each way to do FI. We offer nice discounts off web prices for FABO guys and are cheaper than scummit and jegs on most things. We also know what works and doesnt unlike scummit or jegs. We have been building magnums since 92, doing magnum engine swaps since 98 and have run my own performance shop for last 25 years. If we havent tried it on our cars, we dont sell it. We drive magnums everyday. Evan

Now there's some information from someone who actually knows the details.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Keep in mind when choosing a camshaft for EFI that the injection will have a calming effect on the idle quality. So take that into consideration when choosing.

 

[Ed Jackson]

Thanks guys for the insight I have enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the issue. Ill check out the thread on FI Tech as you have recommended. I have read about the benefits of FI and that all sounds good, it sounds like the picture has been painted a little more rosey than the truth of the matter, but it also sounds like you guys have put in the time to be able to work out the kinks.
Being green at all this still leaves me with more questions the more I learn. I will keep the education process going. At this point I am still not sure what route to take. I am thinking it is two different approaches. I want the old muscle car feel for sure and if I can get that and have better reliability all is good.

 

[jbc426]

Google is 97% full of ****. A dealer CAN NOT flash a JTEC controller(mopar pcm) for performance related issues. All they can do is down load the latest "death flash" that pertains to emissions, they do not do performance flashes. The disconnecting of battery is pointless as pcm will relearn on its own after 30 key cycles. What its capable of relearning is for very simple mods like aftermarket cold air filter or maybe a better flowing muffler but will not stray too far from fuel curve of flash. Our stage I cam is a great example. You can install it with stock springs etc. A 5.2 pcm will run good with the change but a 5.9 will not. 5.9 has too much fuel and not enough timing so it will still be a dog. If you were to install the 5.2 pcm on the 5.9 with that cam, you will get noticeable improvements. If you were to get either pcm flashed for cam, there is probably 20HP 40TQ over not having it flashed. Its all about optimizing programming for your particular application.
That said, you can get a cam that will work with carb and then have FI system installed that will work with it. This is not true for all cams, just some grinds.
There are 3 options:
1 carb
2 factory multi injection
3 after market throttle body injection

Factory injection is great in that its multi port, almost free and works great. Not having to play with a little box and figure out settings for idle, accel pump, WOT and timing makes it much simpler. You simply pay a guy like FRP or us to do all the programming for you then upload it through hand held into ALDL plug. You can also have your pcm bench flashed and avoid downloading yourself. If you do a hand held, you can get upgrade flashed via email, bench flash has to be physically returned to reflash.
Aftermarket throttle body is cheaper than it used to be with FI Tech and Holly Sniper both having systems under $1000. They do not have same performance nor reliability(still to be proven) but are considered simpler by many. If you are sharp with electronics and have a decent understanding of fuel injection than you can make adjustments in your drive way for things like cam, heads etc. there is a GIANT thread on FI Tech here and you should read it to see what issues people are having and how they deal with them. If it sounds too much, go factory or if you want easy and reliable, go multi port.
Either way, start off right and get a pump in tank fuel system so you can avoid external pump issues like overheating, NOISE and generally not as reliable. Putting pump in tank keeps pump cool, they puch much better than they suck and no problems with leaks on factory style tank.
I would be happy to discuss cam grinds with you but I will tell you I disagree with Hughes on cam design. We work directly with Jim at RacerBrown, one off the countrys best Mopar cam designers and grinders. We both believe that the age old designs Hughes sells(and all the big guys) are just that, ancient designs from the days of super crappy exhaust flow. I typically dont discuss my cam theory here as it just creates a huge **** storm. Feel free to look us up on the web at magnummopar. or pm for shop #. I will be happy to explain pros and cons of each way to do FI. We offer nice discounts off web prices for FABO guys and are cheaper than scummit and jegs on most things. We also know what works and doesnt unlike scummit or jegs. We have been building magnums since 92, doing magnum engine swaps since 98 and have run my own performance shop for last 25 years. If we havent tried it on our cars, we dont sell it. We drive magnums everyday. Evan

I use an SCT Tuner to download tunes into my ECM. Its about as plug and play as it gets. JTEC is actually very tunable in the right hands. Mine has been able to run a sock junkyard motor with a slightly larger cam and stiffer springs and a 408" stroker with lightly massaged aftermarket heads, 39lbs injectors, a 1000cfm throttle body and a custom hydraulic roller spec'd Dave Hughes. I'll have to get back with you on how well it runs, as I have the engine out to install Dave's cam and change the exhaust.

I also run a stock fuel tank with an externally mounted pusher pump feeding a surge tank mounted up front in the engine compartment through a full 3/8 supply and return line system. I can run Willow Springs with 2 gallons in the tank and never cavitate the fuel supply. The other nice thing is that the high pressure fuel supply is very short and located within a few feet of the injector rails. Running below 1/3 of a tank of fuel is how those in-tank pumps burn up and pre-heat your fuel. There are many ways to accomplish things, not all is always as it seems or as it is claimed. You just have to do your homework, think things out and try it for yourself.

It should land nicely in the 510+hp range. All this with a factory ECM, Airgap intake, and a very clean HotWire Auto Hotrod style wiring harness. I had to hook up 4 wires to get it up and running, replacement parts such as sensors etc are available everywhere.

Regarding tuning, I simply read my wideband, send the information to my tuner and he emails me my updated tunes are emailed to me, I download them into my handheld tuner and plug them into the OBD2 port under my dash. It usually takes between 3 or 4 tunes to dial the car in close enough, then the ECM will trim very small amounts of fuel from the tables to polish how it runs. It's astoundingly simple, reliable and flexible.

 

[magnummopar]

Interesting fuel system and solution to stock tank without baffles, obviously works very well. Its tough to build for road racing, needs to work for drag, circle and turning right.

We run baffled tanks to prevent starvation at lower levels, so far, so good. Never had an issue with internal pump (excluding everything made by GM) but there is always tomorrow. I am sure you already know this, if you want to get full potential out of your combo, you will have to ditch Dak/Dur air hat and flexable rubber intake tube. Its a 375 HP restricter plate.The metal cage inside also creates huge turbulence in air hat, same as rubber intake. We have some cool smooth ones that are metal rather than plastic one or two inlets, then just fab out of 3-3.5" mandrel bend up to grill using silicon couplers. If you want to get real creative, get tubes ceramic coated inside and out. Some of the new reflective ceramic coatings are amazing.

 

[jbc426]

Interesting fuel system and solution to stock tank without baffles, obviously works very well. Its tough to build for road racing, needs to work for drag, circle and turning right.

We run baffled tanks to prevent starvation at lower levels, so far, so good. Never had an issue with internal pump (excluding everything made by GM) but there is always tomorrow. I am sure you already know this, if you want to get full potential out of your combo, you will have to ditch Dak/Dur air hat and flexable rubber intake tube. Its a 375 HP restricter plate.The metal cage inside also creates huge turbulence in air hat, same as rubber intake. We have some cool smooth ones that are metal rather than plastic one or two inlets, then just fab out of 3-3.5" mandrel bend up to grill using silicon couplers. If you want to get real creative, get tubes ceramic coated inside and out. Some of the new reflective ceramic coatings are amazing.

I appreciate the kind words and advice. One of your tanks with a surge tank up front would handle any type of racing use with added insurance.

I knew that filter set-up would chock the engine with the bigger cam. I just picked up a 4" inlet, cast-aluminum air hat from Spectre. It sits up about 3 1/2 " above the throttle body. I was thinking of running smooth 4" pipe to a cutout in the passenger side inner fenderwell with silicon couplers and a bulkhead connector into a high flow K&N Tractor Trailer canister air filter mounted up under the fender with a forward facing scoop.