ronw
Well-Known Member
Thinking of putting a truck V8 2000 or newer 5 speed top loader in back of a 1968 318 eng. Will this combo work? Thanks Ron
5 Speed swap
- Thread starter ronw
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Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
Depends.
If the trans came out of a 5.2 Magnum, it will fit and work (provided your 318 is drilled for a pilot bearing, or the pocket is drilled deep enough for the input shaft and use the later style roller pilot).
If it came from a 5.9, everything will bolt up, but the flywheel will be the wrong balance (5.9 external balance) and you will need to source a neutral balance flywheel.
If from a 4.7 the trans and bell will bolt up, but again you will need to source a neutral balance flywheel since the 4.7 has an 8 bolt crank flange.
If you're going to try to put this in an A body and not a truck, be aware that it's going to take a lot of firewall/trans tunnel/crossmember reworking to get it to fit- and the amount will depend on if you are using an NV2500, NV3500, NV4500, or AX15 transmission. They also all require hydraulic clutch linkage, and most of the 2000 and later transmissions also lack the proper speedometer drive. The bigger trannies also use a bigger (143 t. flywheel, 11" clutch) flywheel/bellhousing that may require even more clearancing...
The 2500 and AX15 are the only ones with gear ratios even remotely suited for a passenger car, but they're also the lightest duty of the bunch.
If the trans came out of a 5.2 Magnum, it will fit and work (provided your 318 is drilled for a pilot bearing, or the pocket is drilled deep enough for the input shaft and use the later style roller pilot).
If it came from a 5.9, everything will bolt up, but the flywheel will be the wrong balance (5.9 external balance) and you will need to source a neutral balance flywheel.
If from a 4.7 the trans and bell will bolt up, but again you will need to source a neutral balance flywheel since the 4.7 has an 8 bolt crank flange.
If you're going to try to put this in an A body and not a truck, be aware that it's going to take a lot of firewall/trans tunnel/crossmember reworking to get it to fit- and the amount will depend on if you are using an NV2500, NV3500, NV4500, or AX15 transmission. They also all require hydraulic clutch linkage, and most of the 2000 and later transmissions also lack the proper speedometer drive. The bigger trannies also use a bigger (143 t. flywheel, 11" clutch) flywheel/bellhousing that may require even more clearancing...
The 2500 and AX15 are the only ones with gear ratios even remotely suited for a passenger car, but they're also the lightest duty of the bunch.
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Another matter to consider....
Truck transmissions are often suited for load hauling, not rapid acceleration. The gearing will be different from a transmission designed for a car.
Truck transmissions are often suited for load hauling, not rapid acceleration. The gearing will be different from a transmission designed for a car.
ronw
Well-Known Member
were there any model cars that had a 5 speed that would be suited better for this swap with less work?
Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
No.
The only "bolt in" 5 speed would be the aftermarket Passon A855 unit, but there were too many quality control issues at the time, a huge backlog on orders, and I'm not even sure that it's being offered anymore.
Many "buyer beware" posts on this site, like this one:
A855 - 5 Speed
Another option would be a T-5 (WC being the strongest of the bunch) out of a Mustang, using the Gill Welding adapter (I know it's listed as a slant 6 adapter, but the bellhousing to transmission bolt patterns are the same).
T-5 Bellhousing Adapter Plate For Slant Six | gillwelding
Just be aware that there are many different versions of the T-5, most of which would only be suited to a lower-output engine. A T-5 still requires tunnel mods, but nothing too extensive. The T-5WC is the strongest of the bunch and can stand up to some fair abuse.
Silver Sport also offers a kit... Inside Silver Sport Transmissions' All-New T-5 Kit For Mopar A-Bodies - Mopar Connection Magazine | A comprehensive daily resource for Mopar enthusiast news, features and the latest Mopar tech
I know Kiesler (defunct, now SST) used to offer a redrilling service to the T-5 pattern on an 833OD bell, but not much info out there on that out there or what it takes to complete the swap.
BTW, you still haven't mentioned what you intend to put this in?
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ronw
Well-Known Member
thank you for the info.ron
Dave999
Well-Known Member
for a T5 swap a late model mustang box with the longer input shaft
a kit to mount the speedo drive (split collar and shells to clamp output shaft)
and the tail housing of a chevy S10 truck modified to fit your later Wold class transmission might be a good move.
i am 90% there with this, the last 10% is due to lazyness and lack of motivation (i quite like my car running and drivable in the summer months..its been an 8 year project
)
this whole idea is based on a set of ancient posts on here and on moparts by a guy called "Cageman" who appears to have managed to shove a similarly configured T5 into a valaint with little to no floor cutting
one day i'll be able to tell you if he was correct
Look up "valiant T5 S10" "Cageman" in goolge and you will find most of his posts listed
he has not visted any mopar site in years as far as i can tell. but does appear to be the only man in mopardom who fitted a tremec based transmission into a mopar without hacking out the top of the torsion bar cross memeber. or he just didn't care about drive shaft angles
note also his views on the cheap and appropriately angled 1986 chevy S10 clutch master..
Its the OEM part that appears to have been copied by all to make their expensive bolt on cluctch master for mopars.
seemingly has the perfect angle of dangle to fit with the contour of the firewall..and just needs a new hole drilled for the studs
these a $25 on rock auto if its too long in the pushrod i'm sure a new rod end could be grafted on
i'm siticking with the z bar as i have Right hand Drive car, and will use my standard bellhousing.
the ford guys destroyed many a t5 but really its how you drive , pleanty raced em and managed to keep them together. In many cases an 80s/90s mustang will weigh considerably more than a 60s 70s A body...which helps our case considerbaly. i.e not trying to accelerate a dead weight of eletcric windows motors central locking, thick sound deadening, airconditioning and rather plush recaro style seats that adjust in all 3 dimensions helps.
Dave
a kit to mount the speedo drive (split collar and shells to clamp output shaft)
and the tail housing of a chevy S10 truck modified to fit your later Wold class transmission might be a good move.
i am 90% there with this, the last 10% is due to lazyness and lack of motivation (i quite like my car running and drivable in the summer months..its been an 8 year project
)this whole idea is based on a set of ancient posts on here and on moparts by a guy called "Cageman" who appears to have managed to shove a similarly configured T5 into a valaint with little to no floor cutting
one day i'll be able to tell you if he was correct
Look up "valiant T5 S10" "Cageman" in goolge and you will find most of his posts listed
he has not visted any mopar site in years as far as i can tell. but does appear to be the only man in mopardom who fitted a tremec based transmission into a mopar without hacking out the top of the torsion bar cross memeber. or he just didn't care about drive shaft angles
note also his views on the cheap and appropriately angled 1986 chevy S10 clutch master..
Its the OEM part that appears to have been copied by all to make their expensive bolt on cluctch master for mopars.
seemingly has the perfect angle of dangle to fit with the contour of the firewall..and just needs a new hole drilled for the studs
these a $25 on rock auto if its too long in the pushrod i'm sure a new rod end could be grafted on
i'm siticking with the z bar as i have Right hand Drive car, and will use my standard bellhousing.
the ford guys destroyed many a t5 but really its how you drive , pleanty raced em and managed to keep them together. In many cases an 80s/90s mustang will weigh considerably more than a 60s 70s A body...which helps our case considerbaly. i.e not trying to accelerate a dead weight of eletcric windows motors central locking, thick sound deadening, airconditioning and rather plush recaro style seats that adjust in all 3 dimensions helps.
Dave
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DionR
Well-Known Member
There are a couple of guys running an AX15.
I know @dartslantsix is one - David Belau
@75slant6 is another.
An R154/MA5/AR5 could be swapped into the same place and gives better ratios. And the MA5 survived Rocky Mountain Race Week in a C10 behind a 392.
I know @dartslantsix is one - David Belau
@75slant6 is another.
An R154/MA5/AR5 could be swapped into the same place and gives better ratios. And the MA5 survived Rocky Mountain Race Week in a C10 behind a 392.
This is the exact master/slave cylinder setup I used in my ax15 swap. And like you said, the pushrod length wasn’t correct, so I cut out a section of the rod, threaded the ends of the cut rods and put it back together with a coupling nut to give me adjustability.
This can be worked around. For example, the ax-15 ratios in my Duster are
1st - 3.83
2nd - 2.33
3rd - 1.44
4th - 1.00
5th - .79
Running those ratios with 2.76 rear gears gives you almost IDENTICAL acceleration in the first three gears as a 904 with 4.10’s, plus gives you 2 more gears. And a .79 overdrive coupled with 2.76’s makes for pretty awesome highway cruising!
DionR
Well-Known Member
Plus an AX15 still has better splits than an A833OD.
I also like that you can match it up with a rear gear that most people are throwing away or selling for cheap.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
I have owned a 2004 Chevrolet Colorado 3.5 I-5 with an AR5 in it for almost 17 years, have driven it 100k miles, I do like the truck, but why anyone would go through the effort to swap that transmission into a performance car is beyond me. It has a 220hp, 6300 rpm capable engine in front of it and its a ZQ8 (lowered, 2wd) so you can really rip on it. Hasn't broken but that's not really selling me as a performance transmission. The gear ratios are too low in 1st for a V8 car unless you have a super tall gear. 3.74/2.26/1.31/1/.73. My truck has a 3.42 rear end and similar size tires and the 5cyl will spin without doing anything crazy with the clutch, even with 245/45-17's (I now went back to the stock 235/50-17).
Yes, you can shift it at 6200 rpm, I have done it many times, but only really fast from 1-2, and you can get good rubber with the I5 even. 3rd gear syncro isn't that good so it will grind sometimes and the shifter is kinda clunky. Shifting 3-4 is clunky, sounds like a box of rocks with the clutch out at idle, even though it uses gear oil and not ATF. The clutch action on the truck is great but its only a 9.5" hydraulic clutch.
If you're going to spend time fabbing, going to hydraulic clutch, I would still tell you to save up for a TKX or T56 Magnum. The T56 magnum in my Duster is an absolute joy compared to the AR5 or an A-833 for that matter.
DionR
Well-Known Member
No doubt it is far from the ideal trans, but if someone where to want to keep the costs down and ran a 2.XX gear, doesn't seem like a bad option.
Worst case, swap in an AX15/AR5/MA5 and save up for an R154 down the road.
That said, I bought a T56 Magnum last winter and plan to start on my G3/T56 swap soon. So no disagreement from me.
Yup. 20 year old me on a super small budget wasn’t gonna be able to afford a T56 swap, so AX15 it was… that’s been 9 years and 18,000 miles ago and she’s still doing GREAT behind my stock 5.9.
If you are happy with a large rpm drop between gears, go for it.
A first gear ratio of 3.83 to 1 is worthless in a car unless you’re just cruising. The 1.5 ratio drop to second gear is close to the 833 overdrive. If your car had any performance cam in it, you either have to short shift from 1 to 2 or have acceleration in 2nd be sluggish when you run it to 5500-6000 in first.
It is your decision. It is best to make them with all the information you can collect to know what downsides you’ll encounter.
The 2.76 gear ran through a .69 final drive is fine for a stock engine but horrible for an engine with a lot of duration in the cam timing.
A first gear ratio of 3.83 to 1 is worthless in a car unless you’re just cruising. The 1.5 ratio drop to second gear is close to the 833 overdrive. If your car had any performance cam in it, you either have to short shift from 1 to 2 or have acceleration in 2nd be sluggish when you run it to 5500-6000 in first.
It is your decision. It is best to make them with all the information you can collect to know what downsides you’ll encounter.
The 2.76 gear ran through a .69 final drive is fine for a stock engine but horrible for an engine with a lot of duration in the cam timing.
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DionR
Well-Known Member
I agree that collecting info is important.
So, to put things in perspective, here are the following percentage of drop for several transmissions:
| 2001 Mustang GT TR3650 | A833 OD | AX15 | A833 | A833 | R154 | TKO-500 | A833 /6 | A833 HOD | Colorado MA5 | Solstice AR5 | |
| 1st | 3.38 | 3.09 | 3.83 | 2.47 | 2.66 | 3.25 | 3.27 | 3.09 | 2.66 | 3.753 | 3.753 |
| 2nd | 2 | 1.67 | 2.33 | 1.77 | 1.91 | 1.95 | 1.98 | 1.92 | 1.59 | 2.26 | 2.26 |
| 3rd | 1.32 | 1 | 1.44 | 1.34 | 1.39 | 1.3 | 1.34 | 1.4 | 1 | 1.37 | 1.51 |
| 4th | 1 | 0.73 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0.8 | 1 | 1 |
| 5th | 0.67 | 0.79 | 0.75 | 0.68 | 0.729 | 0.729 | |||||
| 1-2 drop | 40.83% | 45.95% | 39.16% | 28.34% | 28.20% | 40.00% | 39.45% | 37.86% | 40.23% | 39.78% | 39.78% |
| 2-3 drop | 34.00% | 40.12% | 38.20% | 24.29% | 27.23% | 33.33% | 32.32% | 27.08% | 37.11% | 39.38% | 33.19% |
| 3-4 drop | 24.24% | 27.00% | 30.56% | 25.37% | 28.06% | 23.08% | 25.37% | 28.57% | 20.00% | 27.01% | 33.77% |
| 4-5 drop | 33.00% | FALSE | 21.00% | FALSE | FALSE | 25.00% | 32.00% | FALSE | FALSE | 27.10% | 27.10% |
The AX15/AR5/MA5 has about a 40% drop 1-2, which matches the TR3650, TKO500, R154 and Hemi OD from Passon. That's not bad company to be in, and not what I would say is a large RPM drop first to second.
I think the important point with the Aisin trans though is that with the fairly deep first gear, you have to be careful not to over gear the car with a deep final drive. Like @75slant6 said above, an AX15 with a 2.76 final drive would feel like a 904 with a 4.10 final drive, mph and shift RPM wise. But @goldduster318 doesn't like the 3.42 final drive with his MA5. So there is a range for someone.
And I drive a A833OD and while I wouldn't argue isn't the best for a performance build, it is fine for what it is. If someone had limited funds and an A833OD was an option, I would tell them to give it a shot.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
Oh it works for me, but remember its a 3600 lb truck with 225 lb-ft of torque.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting (to me) comparison of some of the available transmissions, excluding the high end ones like a T56 or TKX.
That AX15 with a 2.71 final drive should feel just as good as a Passon Hemi OD box with 3.91's, first through 3rd and would cruise at a much better RPM on the highway.
And it's pretty comparable to a TKO500 with 3.21's outside of 4th.
| A833 OD | AX15 | A833 | TKO-500 | A833 HOD | |
| 1st | 3.09 | 3.83 | 2.66 | 3.27 | 2.66 |
| 2nd | 1.67 | 2.33 | 1.91 | 1.98 | 1.59 |
| 3rd | 1 | 1.44 | 1.39 | 1.34 | 1 |
| 4th | 0.73 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0.8 |
| 5th | 0.79 | 0.68 | |||
| 1-2 drop | 45.95% | 39.16% | 28.20% | 39.45% | 40.23% |
| 2-3 drop | 40.12% | 38.20% | 27.23% | 32.32% | 37.11% |
| 3-4 drop | 27.00% | 30.56% | 28.06% | 25.37% | 20.00% |
| 4-5 drop | FALSE | 21.00% | FALSE | 32.00% | FALSE |
| Final Drive | 3.21 | 2.71 | 3.91 | 3.21 | 3.91 |
| Peak Tq | 362 | 362 | 362 | 362 | 362 |
| 1st | 3591 | 3757 | 3765 | 3800 | 3765 |
| 2nd | 1941 | 2286 | 2703 | 2301 | 2251 |
| 3rd | 1162 | 1413 | 1967 | 1557 | 1415 |
| 4th | 848 | 981 | 1415 | 1162 | 1132 |
| 5th | 0 | 775 | 0 | 790 | 0 |
That AX15 with a 2.71 final drive should feel just as good as a Passon Hemi OD box with 3.91's, first through 3rd and would cruise at a much better RPM on the highway.
And it's pretty comparable to a TKO500 with 3.21's outside of 4th.
Correct, I ran 3.23 gears initially and 1st gear was worthless outside of taking off on a hill, after swapping to 2.76’s I shift it like any other 5 speed, aside from when I’m auto crossing, then I can run faster times if I start off in 2nd. Don’t spin as easily off the line and don’t need to make the 1-2 shift. I then run the whole course in 2nd.
I’ve gotta disagree with you on the 3.83 gear being worthless in a car. Like Dion said, check out my early post (post #10), you simply need to run the appropriate rear gears.
446acuda
Well-Known Member
I have a Getrag 238 6 speed with a sb/Hemi pattern bellhousing. The ratios are pretty decent at 4.23/2.53/1.67/1.23/1.0/0.79. Probably would be good for something with 2.76 gears and tall tires. Too bad it has a flange instead of a slip yoke.
I read what you posted. It is wrong if you have a cam much bigger than stock.
If you have a stock engine and use this transmission and a 2.76 gear, you'll still have the huge rpm drop but it won't matter as much.
What kind of dude is happy with a stock engine??
I still don’t see the issue. If a 904 with 4.10’s works behind a built engine with a bigger cam, then this will work also.
I have no upside or downside to what people do to their cars.
I just expressed an opinion that makes sense. There is a reason why trucks and cars have different ratios in their transmissions.
If someone wants to ignore good advice and follow a path that will be inferior, that is up to them.
Some people are so invested in pinching pennies, they will work 3 times as hard making a square peg fit a round hole to save 4 dollars.
I'm certainly not rolling in money but I spend the cash when it makes sense to do so.
I love making cheap stuff work but when the final result is grossly inferior to other options that were available to me, I spend the money.
The simple truth is....
The car will perform better with a transmission originally designed for a car. Some people choose to ignore this in the interest of saving money.
Look at what the OEMs do with transmission ratios. They pick them to suit the applications. Trucks get deep 1st and second gears to get the truck moving with the maximum load it can carry or tow. Speed isn't the goal, getting 10,000 lbs moving without burning the clutch is high on the list though.
For example, the Tremec 6 speed in the newer Challengers use a 2.95 to 1 1st gear.
I just expressed an opinion that makes sense. There is a reason why trucks and cars have different ratios in their transmissions.
If someone wants to ignore good advice and follow a path that will be inferior, that is up to them.
Some people are so invested in pinching pennies, they will work 3 times as hard making a square peg fit a round hole to save 4 dollars.
I'm certainly not rolling in money but I spend the cash when it makes sense to do so.
I love making cheap stuff work but when the final result is grossly inferior to other options that were available to me, I spend the money.
The simple truth is....
The car will perform better with a transmission originally designed for a car. Some people choose to ignore this in the interest of saving money.
Look at what the OEMs do with transmission ratios. They pick them to suit the applications. Trucks get deep 1st and second gears to get the truck moving with the maximum load it can carry or tow. Speed isn't the goal, getting 10,000 lbs moving without burning the clutch is high on the list though.
For example, the Tremec 6 speed in the newer Challengers use a 2.95 to 1 1st gear.
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