WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
RustyRatRod would just put me out of business with his recommendations.
Bell-housing alignment help
- Thread starter WSUTARD
- Start date
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rustycowll69
Well-Known Member
since your asking about the clutch direction in another thread, I'm assuming you were able to remove the old dowel pins, install the new offset pins. So what were the final numbers after the o/set pins were clocked as well as possible?
WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I don't think that is measured here, is it?
It is likely IMHO that EACH BH is warped along the edges or somewhere in the body when off the engine. I suspect it all comes from how to machine the cast BH in the first place. That open flange ('free face' I'll call it) of the BH that goes against the block is just naturally more prone to warping and flexing since it is open, relatively unsupported, and widely spread. It makes no sense to machine the trannie face, bolt/clamp that to a reference surface, and then machine the free face while not torqued to anything, because the free face IS gonna move off 'somewhere' when torqued down. Machine the 'free face' (block face) first, bolt/clamp that down to a reference surface which moves/distorts the casting to its final form as it will be when bolted to the engine block, and then machine the trannie face parallel to the reference surface. An interesting manufacturing problem....
rustycowll69
Well-Known Member
I agree flycutting that front open face of a thin aluminum die casting like that must be interesting. I would imagine it would sing like a tuning fork.
WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
Wrapping up this thread. Got everything from the flywheel back installed! Thanks for all the help on this.
Learnings:
1. Torque all the bellhousing bolts before indicating.
2. Indicator needs to be as centered as possible.
3. RobbMC offset dowels are awesome.
4. People on this forum are awesome!
Learnings:
1. Torque all the bellhousing bolts before indicating.
2. Indicator needs to be as centered as possible.
3. RobbMC offset dowels are awesome.
4. People on this forum are awesome!
moper
Well-Known Member
Good Work.
WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
Update: Manged to get the engine and trans back in the car today! Tomorrow I'm going to start reconnecting everything. Can't wait to start it back up...after I check everything a million times.
Jason Wenger
Active Member
OK, not to derail a happy thread, but I've got the same problem.
I've got a 360 stroker from Muscle Motors in Lansing, MI, and a Quick Time bell plus Tremec 5-speed, shipped as a set from American Powertrain.
Dialing it in, I have 52 thousandths (0.052) of runout (max number dial reading minus minimum dial reading)
The dial goes back to 0 after a full rotation, and I have no wobble or play in the mag mount. I get this number very consistently, either with the flywheel on, or with the dial indicator base placed directly on the face of the crank. I get the same numbers whether the block plate is on or off. I've measured repeatedly, with the bell removed and off and remounted between each. I'm putting in all the bell-to-block bolts, and each is properly and consistently torqued for each measurement. I've inspected the inside ring of the bell and there are no ridges or burrs, nor can I find any on the back face of the block or the front face of the bell. I've dialed it both with the bell alone, as well as with the adapter ring that reduces the hole diameter to match the Tremec tranny face. Throughout all of these different attempts, I get the same number, spot on, every measurement. The dial sweeps smoothly from full deflection to full opposite deflection as I make my way from 12:00 to 6:00, and back. There are no sudden jumps or irregularities that would indicate surface finish problems. There is not excessive slop in the dowel locating holes in the bell.
The runout is straight down -- in other words, the bell housing needs to be shifted straight down in order to correct the runout.
My dad had ordered a set of .021 offset dowels. Knowing that wouldn't be enough, but just to check my measurements and methods, I mounted the bell with the .021 offsets in, and dial indicated. I'm left with 10 or 11 thousandths of runout remaining -- in other words, the needle swings +5 at the top of the bell housing, and -5 to -6 at the bottom of the bell.
From what I can read, the tranny wants less than 5 thou of runout, and I'm still stuck at 5 to 5½ thou, even with the biggest offset dowels that are available for purchase, and needing to use 0.021s seem like a crazy adjustment, if everything is right.
American Powertrain says that QuickTime CNC measures all their bells and so it has to be the block.
Muscle Motors says that Mopar wouldn't ship a block that bad so it must be the bell.
I don't have a second bell that I can compare against because the original engine was a slant 6 with an automatic.
I don't know what else I can do. Do you guys have any thoughts on what I can try as a next step?
I've got a 360 stroker from Muscle Motors in Lansing, MI, and a Quick Time bell plus Tremec 5-speed, shipped as a set from American Powertrain.
Dialing it in, I have 52 thousandths (0.052) of runout (max number dial reading minus minimum dial reading)
The dial goes back to 0 after a full rotation, and I have no wobble or play in the mag mount. I get this number very consistently, either with the flywheel on, or with the dial indicator base placed directly on the face of the crank. I get the same numbers whether the block plate is on or off. I've measured repeatedly, with the bell removed and off and remounted between each. I'm putting in all the bell-to-block bolts, and each is properly and consistently torqued for each measurement. I've inspected the inside ring of the bell and there are no ridges or burrs, nor can I find any on the back face of the block or the front face of the bell. I've dialed it both with the bell alone, as well as with the adapter ring that reduces the hole diameter to match the Tremec tranny face. Throughout all of these different attempts, I get the same number, spot on, every measurement. The dial sweeps smoothly from full deflection to full opposite deflection as I make my way from 12:00 to 6:00, and back. There are no sudden jumps or irregularities that would indicate surface finish problems. There is not excessive slop in the dowel locating holes in the bell.
The runout is straight down -- in other words, the bell housing needs to be shifted straight down in order to correct the runout.
My dad had ordered a set of .021 offset dowels. Knowing that wouldn't be enough, but just to check my measurements and methods, I mounted the bell with the .021 offsets in, and dial indicated. I'm left with 10 or 11 thousandths of runout remaining -- in other words, the needle swings +5 at the top of the bell housing, and -5 to -6 at the bottom of the bell.
From what I can read, the tranny wants less than 5 thou of runout, and I'm still stuck at 5 to 5½ thou, even with the biggest offset dowels that are available for purchase, and needing to use 0.021s seem like a crazy adjustment, if everything is right.
American Powertrain says that QuickTime CNC measures all their bells and so it has to be the block.
Muscle Motors says that Mopar wouldn't ship a block that bad so it must be the bell.
I don't have a second bell that I can compare against because the original engine was a slant 6 with an automatic.
I don't know what else I can do. Do you guys have any thoughts on what I can try as a next step?
moper
Well-Known Member
I think I'd look at two solutions. Give ROBB a call - see if they can make you a set of .027 ofsets. Or get some shim stock and egg the holes in the bell so you can place the shim stock under on side of the pin, offsetting the bell the rest of the way. Also make sure the bell bolts are not holding you back not. SOmetimes having to move it too far means the attachement holes might be so misaligned the bolts hold the bell off position.
Jason Wenger
Active Member
I already had to egg the bell bolt holes to get it to even accept the 0.021 dowels.
Robb said CNC'ing a 1-off part would be absurdly expensive. More than $100. He suggested drilling out the alignment pin holes, bolting it on, beating on it with a mallet until it was aligned, drilling out some washers to be snug-fit over the pins, slipping the washers over the pins and welding them to the bell, to keep it from moving.
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rustycowll69
Well-Known Member
have you tried mounting the base to the back of the block and checking runout on the crank flange, both for flange(flywheel mounting)surface flatness, and for edge runout?
if there are no surprises there, then I think I'd try it with the .021 offset dowels. I guess you'd like to get it perfect, but sometimes close enough is good enough.
moper
Well-Known Member
Hmm.
I'd now second the try another bellhousing. If the 2nd bell has the same issues I'd have pins made up, or maybe weld some material onto Rob's and grind it smoother so it's more than .021. Before you get too far into "making it work", make sure the bell is not a problem.
I'd now second the try another bellhousing. If the 2nd bell has the same issues I'd have pins made up, or maybe weld some material onto Rob's and grind it smoother so it's more than .021. Before you get too far into "making it work", make sure the bell is not a problem.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I am having similar thoughts; the crank flange may be off, or the bellhousing or back of the block could be cocked upward relative to the crank.
What a stupid non-answer.....Does Muscle Motors have production records from the original machine shops supplying the factory to back that up?
moper
Well-Known Member
Having seen what a good machining center can do for any factory machined surface... I have to giggle at that response from them.
pishta
I know I'm right....
What if the block was align honed/bored, putting the crank higher off the centerline? Would that be the direction your off?
rustycowll69
Well-Known Member
that makes perfect sense, but he claims he needs to move the b/housing straight DOWN. Now, I would say he's maybe misreading the +/- direction of his dial indicator(it's very easy to do), but he put in offset dowels, and it moved the correct direction, so....
Jason Wenger
Active Member
It was align bored or honed, not sure which of the two, but the bell definitely needs to go down. I've put the offset dowels in, and I know which half of the bell mounting bolt holes I had to enlarge on.
I don't see how it would even be physically possible to displace the crank down, barring some lunacy involving eccentric or oversized main bearings, or adding shims. So from there, the only other option involving the engine half of the equation is... if the alignment pin holes were machined in the wrong place on the block, back when it was first built?
Per suggestions above, I'll check the face and edge of the crank vs the block, and I'll check the face of the bell vs the crank, see if they're in the same plane or cocked up. This weekend, maybe, if I can get away.
I don't see how it would even be physically possible to displace the crank down, barring some lunacy involving eccentric or oversized main bearings, or adding shims. So from there, the only other option involving the engine half of the equation is... if the alignment pin holes were machined in the wrong place on the block, back when it was first built?
Per suggestions above, I'll check the face and edge of the crank vs the block, and I'll check the face of the bell vs the crank, see if they're in the same plane or cocked up. This weekend, maybe, if I can get away.
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moper
Well-Known Member
When it's line bored and honed, the crank centerline is maintained. At least if it's done properly. If it's done improperly than it might move the crank's CL up by a very small amount. I'd consider .002-.005" bad. So moving it .020" would really, really, REALLY be bad. Remember any changes ther affects the pistons' deck height, and the ability of any timing set to work properly. So it's a big deal and nobody moves it intentionally.
WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
I am the simple one in this thread so I will state the simple questions. You never know.
1. when you set your dial indicator, are you setting it as close to perpendicular to the bellhousing ring as possible? See my pic below.
It is my experience that close enough isn't good enough with this. It needs to be as perpendicular as possible. I was out of spec and then came in spec when I figured out how to basically get my gauge in the hole and functioning.
2. When you zero out are you setting 0 to vertical? Follow up, when you reach 6 o'clock you are at .052 (+) or .048 (-)?
My issue was a combo on not torquing the bellhousing bolts down and not getting the gauge perpendicular.
1. when you set your dial indicator, are you setting it as close to perpendicular to the bellhousing ring as possible? See my pic below.
It is my experience that close enough isn't good enough with this. It needs to be as perpendicular as possible. I was out of spec and then came in spec when I figured out how to basically get my gauge in the hole and functioning.
2. When you zero out are you setting 0 to vertical? Follow up, when you reach 6 o'clock you are at .052 (+) or .048 (-)?
My issue was a combo on not torquing the bellhousing bolts down and not getting the gauge perpendicular.
rklein383
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My math brain is kicking in on whether the dial indicator has to be as close to perpendicular as possible. It if wasn't perpendicular, say 20 degrees off, a five thousands reading on the dial would actually be more, say seven thousands, just making up a number. However, this error would be replicated 360 degrees and cancel out. Too lazy to put the numbers on paper to prove or disprove my thoughts....
WSUTARD
Well-Known Member
I dont have a math brain but I can tell you that as I moved the dial closer to perpendicular the amount I was out decreased in total.
rklein383
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Sometimes actually doing it is better than nerding it... Rod
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