Best clutch for small block W-600 hp

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scampman416

scampman416

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I have a 71 Scamp 4 gear car, I am running the 833 Aluminum case built by Liberty it is Pro shifted 23 splin input. Looking for advice on Flywheel and clutch choices. The car is 3000 lbs with me in it, 4:88 gears 29.5 tire I may go back to 4:56s R3 eng 416 cubs Indy 360-2 heads built by Ryan @ Shady Dells speed shop Expecting 600 + HP, plus as much as a 250 shot of NOS Have not assembled yet, Expecting to go Racing this spring.
 
I love my centerforce. Look into them.
 
I use a ford long style with 1200 -1400 lbs static and a button disk with 3.5 FC pucks...My GTX is 3800 lbs and 830 hp/800 ft lbs...haven't driven through it yet unlike some of my customers with that diaphragm duel disk...

gtx leaving in second gear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YilvlLxgv9U
 
I have the dual friction Centerforce,it wasn,t cheap but they,re the best IMO.Also took off the overcenter spring underdash,makes it way easier on my left knee!:cheers:
 
I have a McCleod diaphragm style /single disk on my 360/A-833

It sucks and does not bite for crap and I'm pushing close to 450 hp.

I am going with a centerforce dual friction some time in the near future.
 
Rob R said:
I use a ford long style with 1200 -1400 lbs static and a button disk with 3.5 FC pucks...My GTX is 3800 lbs and 830 hp/800 ft lbs...haven't driven through it yet unlike some of my customers with that diaphragm duel disk...

gtx leaving in second gear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YilvlLxgv9U
Click to expand...

I dont know....sounds like it has slow throttle response!:toothy10:

Seriously though, I use Mcleod products and I always use the Long style. I have had two centerforces come apart on me and really make a mess.
 
hi, if you're going to race it, use a mcloed soft loc clutch. it will soften up the shock on the rear end as you launch and on gear changes. a clutch that hits so hard will break parts, period!!! the center force is not the clutch to use.
the soft loc is adjustable, you can set base pressure, and counterweight for correct lock up. rest of clutches do not have this feature. i see you're from canada, you might look up rory mcneil, he is a clutch man. he knows clutches for race use. he races at mission raceway. also, forgot, a aluminum flywheel is required for a soft loc, and I would use one anyway. the soft loc is a long pressure plate style. just food for thought.
 
A Soft-Loc clutch is for use with a Jerico or like transmit ions where anything over 750 lbs static will start to break drive gears in the trans (straight cut gear types)...Rev-Loc..Soft-Loc type clutches will not work in 99% of street car applications because they just don't have the static pressure needed to accelerate a street car in 2nd or 3rd gear from traffic speeds...
A Soft-Loc is specifically made for a Jerico Trans..
833's..T-10's..Top Loaders can take a ferocious amount of shock load because of the helical or wish bone style of drive gears.Where the clutch less style of trans have straight cut gears.
 
I run a Mcleod borg beck long with sinterd iron disc with 2400 lbs pressure, I was good for getting the car off the line but grabed to hard in 2nd,3rd,and 4th kept braking driveline parts on the shifts. Sent the pressure plate back to Mcleod they lightend it up to 1200lbs said it should work alot better for track and street ( find out in the spring). Any clutch that has instant grab is going to brake parts with slicks and good traction. Watch your clutch disc weight, to heavy and it will keep the input spinning to fast to shift quick, as in dual disc set ups. I use a 30# flywheel to keep the rpms up and it stops all bogs with a 416 a 3.09 first gear 833 a 3.91 rear gear and 1.5 60 foots letting the clutch fly between 3500 & 4000 rpm.
 
19DART66...I'm surprised you need that 30 lb wheel...your 416 is it a flat tappet cammed engine? what cyl heads and carb are you running..pump gas?....just curious
 
Rob R I changed my combo this season. The engine now has a .668 lift roller with 256in. 262ex. dur. at 0.050 cut on 108. The indybrock heads where cnc ported by Ryan at Shady Dell as was the a new victor jr intake. Still running 10.4 compression and the tricked out 750 carb(carb flows 870). The car matched it best time of 11.14 but had to get out of it just passed the 1000 ft. the car got a little squirely, mph was only 117, all other passes it broke drive line parts because of the harsh clutch ingagement in 2nd and 3rd gear. The clutch hit so hard on the shifts it rattled the whole car, hopefully I will have better luck next season. I have driven car on the the street with alum. flywheels and it seemed to take alot of clutching to get them moving the 30# steel one( average wieght for a steel flywheel)you just let it out and away you go no slipping the clutch.
 
That new bullet sounds like it's going to make some onions.

What were you breaking in the drive line?
Sintered Iron disks can get really brutal when you get heat in them...thats why I use sintered bronze buttons.Plenty of choices of friction coefficients to choose from.
An Alum wheel and a low to med coefficient of friction button keeps the clutch chatter down when driving on the street.
It sounds like you might have WAY TOO much disk (high FC)
 
perfacar said:
hi, if you're going to race it, use a mcloed soft loc clutch. it will soften up the shock on the rear end as you launch and on gear changes. a clutch that hits so hard will break parts, period!!! the center force is not the clutch to use.
the soft loc is adjustable, you can set base pressure, and counterweight for correct lock up. rest of clutches do not have this feature. i see you're from canada, you might look up rory mcneil, he is a clutch man. he knows clutches for race use. he races at mission raceway. also, forgot, a aluminum flywheel is required for a soft loc, and I would use one anyway. the soft loc is a long pressure plate style. just food for thought.
Click to expand...

x2....if you put anything besides an adjustable on the car, especially with the setup you have, you are just wasting your time...as you probably already know, getting a stick to live is all in the clutch, and a good adjustable unit is a must...a dual friction or anything else is just a waste of time on a setup like yours...adjustables are not only for jericos and in fact many street/strip guys use them with great success...set it up for the strip as needed, then when your done a couple of turns and voila, ready for the street..
I suggest you check out www.umtrnorth.com/forums you'll find alot of answers to your questions there..those guys live and breath stickshift and they know their stuff...also, look at the top of the page and you'll see a number for a guy named Tim Hyatt...id give him a call if i was you, he sets up some really nice adjustable clutches using Mcleod and Ram stuff for a better price and better quality (after hearing some of the horor stories of those brands i wouldnt buy either unless it was through him or someone else who goes through them before selling them)...Ive talked with him on numerous occasions and he is a great guy who is very helpful, not to mention you can call him whenever you need to with questions which in my opinion is very valuable for a racer...he's built a clutch for a local racer in my area- the guy went to go watch Tim build it and couldnt be more pleased! the clutch worked great too! check it out!

and good luck!
 
Rob R said:
A Soft-Loc clutch is for use with a Jerico or like transmit ions where anything over 750 lbs static will start to break drive gears in the trans (straight cut gear types)...Rev-Loc..Soft-Loc type clutches will not work in 99% of street car applications because they just don't have the static pressure needed to accelerate a street car in 2nd or 3rd gear from traffic speeds...
A Soft-Loc is specifically made for a Jerico Trans..
833's..T-10's..Top Loaders can take a ferocious amount of shock load because of the helical or wish bone style of drive gears.Where the clutch less style of trans have straight cut gears.
Click to expand...

not too sure where you've been but lots of street cars with them, and they arent running jericos either

Rob R said:
19DART66...I'm surprised you need that 30 lb wheel...your 416 is it a flat tappet cammed engine? what cyl heads and carb are you running..pump gas?....just curious
Click to expand...

I know me too...as far as i knew, they were junk right?:munky2:
 
Rob R said:
833's..T-10's..Top Loaders can take a ferocious amount of shock load because of the helical or wish bone style of drive gears.Where the clutch less style of trans have straight cut gears.
Click to expand...

Ah, straight cut gears are stronger than helical cut gears, ask any engineer. The only reason the factories used helical cut gears is because they are quieter. Straight cut gears are very noisy.
 
Guitar Jones said:
Ah, straight cut gears are stronger than helical cut gears, ask any engineer. The only reason the factories used helical cut gears is because they are quieter. Straight cut gears are very noisy.
Click to expand...

exactly! slipper clutches were not just invented for jericos, they were invented for all trannies to take shock off the driveline, which is why alot of guys use softloks in their street cars with 833's, toploaders, tko's, etc. because they have helical cut gears and therefore are weaker and more prone to breaking...helical cut gears dont have as strong an engagement as straight cut gears, hence the less contact makes them quieter and weaker...if there was a straight cut gearset available for 833's im sure most racers would have it
 
Hi Steve.

After all the "issues" I've been through with my stuff, Don't waste any money on a set up that isn't adjustable.

Yes they are pricey, but how many times do you want to spend $$$$ on inferior parts and unnecesary wear and tear .

Our power levels are close and my combo was wrong from the start. The 833 didn't have a low enough first and the disc and pp were wrong...the clutch wouldn't slip.

PM me so we can talk on the phone.

Remember me
gallery_175_131_81162.jpg


Todd
 
416Todd said:
Hi Steve.

After all the "issues" I've been through with my stuff, Don't waste any money on a set up that isn't adjustable.

Yes they are pricey, but how many times do you want to spend $$$$ on inferior parts and unnecesary wear and tear .

Our power levels are close and my combo was wrong from the start. The 833 didn't have a low enough first and the disc and pp were wrong...the clutch wouldn't slip.

PM me so we can talk on the phone.

Remember me
gallery_175_131_81162.jpg


Todd
Click to expand...

Best piece of advice on this thread
 
416Todd said:
Hi Steve.

After all the "issues" I've been through with my stuff, Don't waste any money on a set up that isn't adjustable.

Yes they are pricey, but how many times do you want to spend $$$$ on inferior parts and unnecesary wear and tear .

Our power levels are close and my combo was wrong from the start. The 833 didn't have a low enough first and the disc and pp were wrong...the clutch wouldn't slip.

PM me so we can talk on the phone.

Remember me

Todd
Click to expand...

Hey Todd, can you give us some more details on your car? i have seen pics and video of it, but i had no idea it was a stickshift! what kind of tranny and clutch/pp are you using? and what kind of motor is it behind (assuming a 416)? what e/ts? sorry for all the questions, its just nice to hear what some other stickshift guys setups are like
 
mshred said:
not too sure where you've been but lots of street cars with them, and they arent running jericos either



I know me too...as far as i knew, they were junk right?:munky2:
Click to expand...


There's those people that know....those that think they know....and those that don't even SUSPECT..!!

mshred...that's you...you don't even suspect...
you were babbling in another thread about some mystical clutch that make alum wheels obsouleet...gime a break...
I speak from piratical experience not what I read on a board...your under the delusion that you can crank all the pressure you need for a street car into a soft lock..I strongly suspect that you haven't all the info regarding all these supposed guys who run Rev and Soft lock clutches on the street...When YOU YOUR SELF HAVE RUN A LOCK on the street I'll pay attention to you.
But for now it's best you keep quiet about things you know nothing about.When YOU have spent the money...then you talk
QUIET because Fast guys are talking :-D

I apologize to the rest of you for getting off track with this post
 
Rob R said:
There's those people that know....those that think they know....and those that don't even SUSPECT..!!

mshred...that's you...you don't even suspect...
you were babbling in another thread about some mystical clutch that make alum wheels obsouleet...gime a break...
I speak from piratical experience not what I read on a board...your under the delusion that you can crank all the pressure you need for a street car into a soft lock..I strongly suspect that you haven't all the info regarding all these supposed guys who run Rev and Soft lock clutches on the street...When YOU YOUR SELF HAVE RUN A LOCK on the street I'll pay attention to you.
But for now it's best you keep quiet about things you know nothing about.When YOU have spent the money...then you talk
QUIET because Fast guys are talking :-D

I apologize to the rest of you for getting off track with this post
Click to expand...

Your a TOOL...first of all, when you post up a dyno sheet with that 800hp b-body i may believe you, but until then your talking out of your *** about that car (anyone can do burnouts on the street)...the other thread was about flywheels, not clutches, so not too sure what your referring too since ive never said anything about aluminum wheels being obsolete (maybe some reading classes or brain check is in order)...Your right i havent run a softlok on the street, but im starting to think you havent either since TONS do and they work FINE...pull your head outta your *** man- i started a thread about faceplated trannies in which you responded and you didnt even know what that was and you claim to be into this for 35 years as you said...then you recommend a road race jerico box for a drag car, when jerico clearly states otherwise in the same thread (and then remember how you stated faceplated trannies wouldnt live on the street, although you have had NO experience with them talking out of your *** again, when many drive them fine on the street, just like big rig drivers)...im starting to question myself what experience you DO have...I think you not paying attention to me is just pure ignorance- i guess because im young and you dont approve of where you THINK i get my info from, i must be stupid...go check out umtr like i posted earlier and see how many of those guys run those clutches, and then come back here and we'll see what your experienced self has to say about it...even better, go out to a stickshift event and you will see a ton of street/strip cars running adjustables with ZERO problems on the street...you posting on here saying that soft loks are for jericos or trannies where straight cut gears break (when straight cut is STRONGER than helical cut) is misinformation to the OP- notice how im not the only guy who said for him to go to an adjustable...wonder why the guy with 35 years of experience doesnt say so? hmmm...think what you want about me getting info from forums, i get out around cars more than you think, but say as you will...until you can prove your theory about adjustables being bad in street cars then you should shut it about who the FAST guys are and what they are using

oh and by the way, whoever the hell builds an 800hp car and runs it on those dinky *** tires like you did in the vid is imo a total crackhead...you think your fast because you can burnout? i can do the same thing too!:-D
 
My car is a 71 Dart Swinger, weighs 3120 with me aboard.

Trans was a Pro shifted/ Face plates 833 Hemi 4 sp.

Motor 416 LA /w Magnum heads. 13.5-1 , .670 solid roller, M-1 and a 950 Ultra HP.

The first clutch was not even close to what i need, got the "recomended" parts from the Tech line, .

Here's what it looked like after 10 runs....

toddstrophy005.jpg



toddstrophy003.jpg


I had no idea the engine shop, Mid Island Engine...in Duncan Bc, threw the motor together, did NO math and gave me a 15.2-1 engine the barely ran on C-12.....Needless to say it detonated BIG time , blew the head gaskets, pistons hit the heads, and had cap walk so bad the caps looked like a fat chicks legs...sickening.

THe car ran 10.513 twice, the same weekend as sick as it was.

I rebuild the motor and put a paddle style disc in, used the same pp.

I still used the same trans...I did rebuid it and face plated 3-4...1-2 were alreadr Pro-shifted

The best times were 10.30 @131. The car ran in the 30's 3 times.

I am definatly happy with the results, but the set up have now only slips at 4000 rpm.....i need more launch rpm

I have an Adj set up from Adv clutches I have installed and a Lenco with a deeper 1st (3.04).

I am also changing the shocks to double adj to control the rebound and help get the car up on the tire.

There is alot more to running a "stick", than most people realize.

I had to replace soo much because I made my initial decisions based on the dyno results of a sick motor...it made 520 hp detonating @ 26* timing....now that it's fixed we figure it makes closer to 600, based on the speed.

An adj set up was highly recommended to me from the fellow i bought my first trans from....

I guess the big questionis...."How many times do you want to spend your $$$ fixing breakage THAT CAN be prevented"?????.

I didn't race at all last year due to my trans upgrade and I was out of work for a couple months.

If you want an industructale trans look into the ST1200. When you compare them to the other choices...I think they are a better deal....

No more missed shifts, No maintenace, they come with shifters and the output yoke.

I'm not a rich man, I just want a tough breakage free ride. My tires are going to take a beating...but I hope to eliminate my driveline issues, and I think I have.

I have a friend in town who runs a G-force 5 sp and an Adj set up on the street, all he does is adj the base pressure to drive on the street.

1 thing that is a great aid in tuning and seeing what is going on is a data logger..but that's a whole different kettle of fish...


Steve....pm me if you want, I may be able to help you or know people that can.

Todd
 
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