Big or Small???

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Grinder

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Its my turn for the old debate of Big vs. Small! Ill start off with what my plans are:

1976 Feather Duster
Alter-K-tion front suspension w/ big brake kit
TKO-600 5 speed
Accel Gen 7 DFI
8 3/4 with 3.55's
17 in. lightweight wheels
Sound Proofed
91 octane
This is a daily driver/cruiser.I want the car to handle like its on rails,and to blast down the 1/4 mi. on occasion.I would also like to see 15 m.p.g if AT ALL possible.The car will see the drag strip around 6 times a year, and an Auto-X track about the same times a year.Also it may have a turbo in the distant future.

Whichever engine I choose will have aluminum heads/intake(there goes the big block weight problem) I dont not want to cut the car up(no fenderwell headers) Also the car HAS TO HAVE A/C(fiance looking over my shoulder). So what do you guys think?
 
I think it is going to be hard to make a leaf spring rear axle car handle . perhaps an independent rear axle system ??
 
68gts340 said:
I think it is going to be hard to make a leaf spring rear axle car handle . perhaps an independent rear axle system ??
Click to expand...
LOL

It can do fine. I like the idea of more displacement. Theres the small problem of fitting bigger things into where they never were suposed to be, but the aftermarket is wonderful for that. Though not perfect or easy to do, the end result is great.
15 mpgs with a big block is doable. A 440 or 451 stroker can be turned into an easy copy of a early Magnum engine for cheap, the aluminum head and intake itself alone can boost power past the stock 375 HP level without a sweat and still retain good mileage.
(Of course thats a combo of gear ratio and lead footing.)
 
Sounds kind of like what I am building with my Dart.

With the TKO-600 you need at least 3.73 gears or else you will be lugging the engine in 5th gear at 55mph (only 1600rpm). Actually, depending on cam choice, 3.91 or 4.10 would be closer to optimal. With 4.10 gears and 26" tires your 60mph cruise rpm would be right at 2000.

For the engine, why not a stroked small block? Almost as much power as a big block, yet less weight.
 
5.7 hemi or 6.1. (5.7 easier to find). youll need a few mods. think about it, less wieght then a big block, even less wieght then an small block (new hemis have aluminum heads), plus hp of the stock 5.7 is around 345 (420 for 6.1). hot rod magazine tested comp cams new cams for new hemis, and they were pushing over 420 hp with the 5.7 easy. check ebay, or salvage yards (with newer cars/trucks) they range from 2500 to 3500. not bad considering thats cheaper than the 300 or 380 MP crate engines. think about it, the 5.7 hurls the 300c down the 1/4 mile somewhere in the 14s what would it get after a 1200lb diet, 13s???? the 6.1 300cs get 13.2 in the 1/4. mmmmmmmmmm dont ya just love it.
im wanting to get half of everything thats on your list for my 64 dart convertible. right now im starting with the rearend. id check the conversion/comparison chart on tremecs web sight. according to it, 3.23s would accelterate "like 3.91s". reading posts from the www.Lateral-g.net website alot of guys using the tko with low gears like 3.90 or 4.10 said 1st was barely used and they went with a higher gear. ya might want to check it out.
 
68gts340 said:
I think it is going to be hard to make a leaf spring rear axle car handle . perhaps an independent rear axle system ??
Click to expand...

OMG, LMAO, you have OBVIOUSLY never heard of Mopar Actions "One Lap of America Series" 1969 2 door Plymouth Valiant that could stop on a dime and give u 6 cents change, ran on pump premium, idle all day without overheating, ran 12 second quarter miles on street tires and 2.94 rear grears, CORNERED AT 0.9g's!!!, cruised economicly at 100mph (got roughly 14 mpg) and topped at 160 mph!!!
Tell ya what, I am not quite done with my 73 ( I am building it based on what they did and with a few tweaks of my own) but you come on up here to Fargo and bring WHATEVER you want and we will go find us a slolom course and see if an old A body can corner, as this will be my second Dart built this way, I will say this, you better bring a Ferrari or Lambo, and even then you wont do so well in comparison :evil2:
 
you are right . i never heard of it, i also know no mopar ever won a trans am championship back in the 60s and early 70s...even the factory backed cars couldnt beat the amc s, mustangs and camaros, but those are only facts,,,,,i am sure that your car is much faster and better than they were.....sorry i forget this venue is stuck back in the 60s......my mistake....
 
68gts349;+

Winning a trans am race and handling well is 2 different things.
The "Green Brick" is something you'll need to read about.

Dodgenut64;

Glad to see some thinking outside the box. Problem is, at least here, where to find a crashed HEMI truck, then, price of said engine(s) and final problem, getting all the wires straightend out. OK, the last one is peanuts next to the rest, but it is troublesome time thing.
Local jerk wrecker here wanted $9,000 for the engine alone. No computer, no tranny. Just engine.
 
Stuck in the 60's eh, this from the same guy who told someone "you are already at the best site on the web".

Tell me, have your feelings changed recently???

Go get a copy of the December 96 issue of Mopar Action, and read for yourself how a "stuck in the 60's" auto went up against 1/4 million dollar purpose built race cars and gave them a huge run for their money (they finished in the top ten{placed 6th overall}, and smoked everything in their class including 2 early craparrow's prepped by Summit racings cheif engineer Mark Stielow one of which was a '67 with an all alloy GTP engine, 2 '63 Grand Sport Corvette replicas, a coupe and a roadster, one of which was a tube chasis rack steered heim jointed race car in disguise with original parts {MAYBE} being door handles).

Look it up, you just might be shocked. Youv'e already got mud on yer face.
 
The KrabySnipers AAAAAAAAALL over it. AlterKations crossmember? Turbos? fugghedaboutit! The torsion bars/leaf springs are more than adequate for what youre trying to do especially if youre only going the tracks about once a month. It almost sounds too simple but heres pretty much all you need imho

1/4 mile prepwork
- 5.7 or 6.1 HEMI (depending on your budget) as the Nut suggested with the basic bolt-ons (intake, exhaust, maybe a cam + some twekaing of the ingine management system)

- OOOOOOOOR you can go with the 5.9L Magnum & build that up... theres a bunch of stuff available for that set up too. Either way definitely stick with EFI if youre gonna be tearin' up the twisties.

- the 6 speed you were planning on using
- 8-3/4", 3.91, Sure Grip, and a good set of Axles
- WELD IN subframe connectors
- 6 point roll cage (8 would be better)
- adjustable shocks all the way around
- stiffer leaf springs
- CalTrac Bars! (these things ROCK!)


road race prep work
- gusseted front crossmember (dont skip this!)
- get the car down to 3100lbs or so
- "corner weight" your car
- road race torsion bars
- sway bars front/rear
- urethane/polygraphite suspension bushings
- a strut tower bar if you go with the 6 point cage (youll have to have one made though)
- quick ratio steering set up (just be carefull on the 1/4 mile with it, it might be a little twitchy)
- swap up to 11.75" stock (yes, stock) rotors with the Viper caliper set up
- B-body rear drums (yes, drums)
- a proportioning valve, of course!

imho, this is pretty much all you need (I think I got everything in there but im people will add to it as they see fit) to hit low 13s (maybe high 12s depending on how far you go with the motor... 400hp or so motor with a small shot of NOS maybe?) & make it "handle like its on rails"

one of my buddies is trying to set up a Duster just like this so ill let you know how it goes once hes done

68gts340
dont be so sensitive man!!! lol
im a definite advocate of new technology like EFI & stuff but theres A LOT of 60's technology (especially MOPAR technology) out there that still cant be beat... the Green Brick is an awesome example of that, you should really find those back issues if you can. Not just because something is new does it mean that its better even though it may have a lot of hype behind it.
 
68gts340, ok slow down. it was a 66 dart that won the very frist scca race. he may have even did it with the mighty slant six. in chryslers defence they want nascar more then trans am, and when they did get back into it they only gave it one year. the challenger and cuda where heavier then the rustangs and gameros, but btoh mopars where said to be great cars, with time they may have went on to win some races. but the trans am series kinda simmered down shortyl after anyway. ive read somewhere that the t/as and aars wher desirable cars, but just didnt get much time to develope. as far as stuck back in the 60s, your reminding us of mopars lack of trans am championships back in the 60s. ok lets see ford and chevy are running the series for 4 years, with mopars only entering later for one season, out numbered 30/2 im sure. think about it, if the small amount of mopars racing the t/a series where up against 30 other cars, thats alot of cars to compete with. and if i remeber correctly the victories from chevy and ford where from two or three very skilled drivers, and those same drivers always won, meaning there where plenty of other blue ovals and bowties in last place as well. put those same championship driver in the aar cuda or t/a challenger for a year and maybe they could have one a championship for mopar. as it was chrysler went into the t/a series half hearted. if they would have went into it like they did with drag racing and nascar, you would have seen earlier/continuing interest in the series. and i might add they should have gave the a-body cars a chance like they did in 66. mopars didnt suck in the t/a series because of poor equipment, they just didnt have much time to develop.
grinder,if your seriously thinking of racing road courses (which i think would be fun as hell) check out some slant six race cars. cheap, fast and easily replacable.
and believe it or not there are slant sixes that will run the 1/4 mile with big block cars. ever heard of a car called the Buzzin Half Dozen? 10s in the 1/4. i couldnt believe it, very empressive. i love the rumble of a v8 but those slant sixes are damn good "bang for the bucks".
i also want the alterkation, but im seriously considering sticking with the leafs for the back. checkout lateral-gs web site. even some of the updated cameros have found that the old leaf srpings still perform very well.
lets all just relax and not get so fired up around here. id hate to see anyones feelings hurt.
 
Dodgenut64 said:
68gts340, ok slow down. it was a 66 dart that won the very frist scca race. he may have even did it with the mighty slant six. in chryslers defence they want nascar more then trans am, and when they did get back into it they only gave it one year. the challenger and cuda where heavier then the rustangs and gameros, but btoh mopars where said to be great cars, with time they may have went on to win some races. but the trans am series kinda simmered down shortyl after anyway. ive read somewhere that the t/as and aars wher desirable cars, but just didnt get much time to develope. as far as stuck back in the 60s, your reminding us of mopars lack of trans am championships back in the 60s. ok lets see ford and chevy are running the series for 4 years, with mopars only entering later for one season, out numbered 30/2 im sure. think about it, if the small amount of mopars racing the t/a series where up against 30 other cars, thats alot of cars to compete with. and if i remeber correctly the victories from chevy and ford where from two or three very skilled drivers, and those same drivers always won, meaning there where plenty of other blue ovals and bowties in last place as well. put those same championship driver in the aar cuda or t/a challenger for a year and maybe they could have one a championship for mopar. as it was chrysler went into the t/a series half hearted. if they would have went into it like they did with drag racing and nascar, you would have seen earlier/continuing interest in the series. and i might add they should have gave the a-body cars a chance like they did in 66. mopars didnt suck in the t/a series because of poor equipment, they just didnt have much time to develop.
grinder,if your seriously thinking of racing road courses (which i think would be fun as hell) check out some slant six race cars. cheap, fast and easily replacable.
and believe it or not there are slant sixes that will run the 1/4 mile with big block cars. ever heard of a car called the Buzzin Half Dozen? 10s in the 1/4. i couldnt believe it, very empressive. i love the rumble of a v8 but those slant sixes are damn good "bang for the bucks".
i also want the alterkation, but im seriously considering sticking with the leafs for the back. checkout lateral-gs web site. even some of the updated cameros have found that the old leaf srpings still perform very well.
lets all just relax and not get so fired up around here. id hate to see anyones feelings hurt.
Click to expand...

Oh yea I have definatly hears of the buzzin half dozen,there is also Tom Drake who has his slant rocket pretty deep into the 9's! I have also been hot rodding and racing slant sixes for the past 10 years or so! Yes slant sixes are dirt cheap and reliable....when they are stock....to get what I want out of the slant it would easily cost 10k just for the engine!!! not to mention another3-5k for the turbo and 2-4k for the fuel injection! so that 15-20k for and engine that makes mabey 350 h.p on 93 octane,and IF it blows at least 6 week wait on the custom pistons/rods,and God knows when to find a good useable Aluminum block!!! Not to mention my car is a V-8 car so I would have to do the conversion to a slant six(not worth it for the 125 h.p drop!)

Thanks for all of the replys and ideas guys! Also whoever said leafspring suspension is not good for road racing :wack: I have been doing it for 15+ years.Ill be shure to tell the BMW guys that leaf spring suspension sucks....as I pass them!
 
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