Dan the man
Well-Known Member
What would a good quality 2500 - 2800 rpm converter cost? I don't need the very best buy I don't want junk either, I don't want to have to replace the converter in like a year because it was cheaper
Cheap 318 performance mods.
- Thread starter Calhoun
- Start date
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Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I've been looking for information on the magnum exhaust manifolds and I couldn't find what I was looking for, is the exhaust opening bigger on the magnum manifolds vs the LA manifolds? dartfreak75 said that he used manifolds for a 2001 ram 1500. I don't mind spending money for a custom down pipe for the left side as long as the benefit is there. Would midlength or shortie headers be better? Remember, I'm too am only looking to get a little extra zap. I do have a car lined up to check out but I don't want to say to much as I don't want to jinx myself. The car is pretty straight, needs a little body work in front of the wheel well looks like someone hit it.
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
I hope you don't think that's what I was implying in my post. I was not I was simply giving him my experience. I'm all for building a budget 318 but in my situation the cost was gonna be the same 318 vs 360. So for my budget it was the best bang for my buck to go with the 360. I was in no way shape or form telling him to ditch the 318 for a 360. In my experience with la motors regardless of mileage once torn down they need to be bored to seal up for "performance". Now a beater driver I've ran many 318s with 70 psi of cylinder pressure lol with magnum engines they seam to not have the same issue with wearing on the cylinder walls (hence why I suggested a magnum build on a budget usually no short block work is required) I torn down a 200k mile 5.2 with not so much of a lip at the top of the cylinders. I was impressed. Now magnum heads are another story. I don't think I've ever seen a set that wasn't cracked.
This is definitely the case for me. I'm still running a stock converter behind my stroker poly and I've received advice that a higher stall converter would be beneficial but the thought of working under the car, unbolting the transmission and swapping it over just doesn't appeal to me, especially when there's a chance I wouldn't be happy with the new converter (as in how the car drives, too much slip), and then have to do it all again.
Working on top of the engine no issue, recently replaced LCA bushings no problem either, but I haven't got a lift and just hate being fully under the car, even with jackstands, timber etc as supports.
I've read the modern converters drive like stock until you're on it, but I'd like to experience it myself before I pull the trigger.
Are you really having any issues using stock ?
Ant
Well-Known Member
Dan, I really hope that they are sticking around, but you pointed out exactly what I'm seeing.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I wasn't
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I understand why you shared your experience and that could be very helpful to others.
Probably would, so would a lot of other thing's, It always about compromises there's always performance left on the table.
This is the way I see it:
Distributor recurve first. Dual exhaust next, intake and 4 barrel after that. If that doesn't make you happy you can change rear gears. Remember, higher numbered ratios will make it more peppy off the line but your cruise rpm will also go up and mileage will go down. Oh, jumping one ratio is barely worth the time and money. Shorter rear tires can do that.
The next logical step might be cam combined with the proper converter to make it work. I see no need for the expense and work to install a performance converter with a stock cammed 318. The cam and converter should have headers to add to the combination. You can add headers at any time but you won't notice much performance difference with a stock cam and 2 barrel. SOmething else very important to check and think about before getting inside the engine and picking out a cam, the compression ratio. 8.5:1 with the wrong cam and you are going backwards. You'll have to rev it to the moon to make any power. You'll need the 4000 stall converter then. Your heads will also run out of flow as well.
That's why it's probably best to stop with the intake and carb unless you are committed to the whole package in the last step. All of that needs to work as a team to make a difference.
Distributor recurve first. Dual exhaust next, intake and 4 barrel after that. If that doesn't make you happy you can change rear gears. Remember, higher numbered ratios will make it more peppy off the line but your cruise rpm will also go up and mileage will go down. Oh, jumping one ratio is barely worth the time and money. Shorter rear tires can do that.
The next logical step might be cam combined with the proper converter to make it work. I see no need for the expense and work to install a performance converter with a stock cammed 318. The cam and converter should have headers to add to the combination. You can add headers at any time but you won't notice much performance difference with a stock cam and 2 barrel. SOmething else very important to check and think about before getting inside the engine and picking out a cam, the compression ratio. 8.5:1 with the wrong cam and you are going backwards. You'll have to rev it to the moon to make any power. You'll need the 4000 stall converter then. Your heads will also run out of flow as well.
That's why it's probably best to stop with the intake and carb unless you are committed to the whole package in the last step. All of that needs to work as a team to make a difference.
Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
Ya Ya. Hi stall is OK for more of a track car. With the stated 3.23 gears a 3500 stall converter will always be "slipping" creating heat and poor fuel economy.
With a short duration cam, a slight bump in compression, a 4 barrel intake of 2 plane design and headers, a lot of stall is not required to make a good street driver.
Now a lockup converter can change that, but most of the older transmissions do not have that option.
Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
Calhoun, first is what is your intended end use? Do you mainly want a Cars and Coffee cruser or something with more zip. When building any project you need to have an honest conversation with yourself.
Self, what have we got to start with and where do we want to get to for a completed project? Now what steps are attainable where as we/I progress we/I do not have to take stuff apart or replace something already bought and installed.
I would get to know and join a local car club. In most the friendly kidding between Mopar, Chevy and Ford guys is just that, friendly kidding. You will get to know guys that know engines, transmissions, body work and interior. Many times you can barter your talent/time to get help with some portion of your project. This can save you a ton of money or heartache.
Check the body over real good for signs of hidden rust and possible accident damage that was not repaired well. Best to find it and repair before installing the drive train and having to remove it again for access.
With intending to run 3.23 gears, plug your ears with those that are telling you that your only source to bliss is a hi stall converter. Cruising speeds with those gears will let the converter slip constantly and not "lock up". This is different than a lockup converter.
While the engine is out check it over for signs of leaks. Check for a rear crank seal leak or front pump seal leak on the trans. Easy to split them apart and replace now. Might be good insurance to just replace the pump seal and rear main now.
Intake manifolds, carbs and exhaust being external parts are fairly easy to exchange any time. Heads are a little more involved but not by much.
With that in mind, I would consider the cam swap now with the engine out and lots of room. Factory cams in the 318 2V, the Chev 305 and Ford 302 had about 195° @ 0.050" and 0.390" valve lift. These engines perk up well with a cam of 204° to 210° intake duration and 0.425" valve lift. Getting into the 220°@ 0.050 lift intake on the cam still leaves you with good torque for the street and good drivability. With this you could be looking at closer to 0.475" to 0.500" valve lift. Valve covers and rocker shafts have to come off as well as the harmonic damper and front cover. Get the cam kit with lifters and a good double roller timing set. You can build a piston stop by cutting an old spark plug at the crimp that holds the ceramic in, cutting the ground off and pushing the ceramic out. It is a bit of a fight. Grind a bolt to have a round end that fits snugly into the plug body and sticking out about 1/2" to 3/4". To degree the cam you install this in the #1 plug hole to stop the piston as it comes up. Note the degree wheel reading. Rotate the opposite direction until it stops and note the degree reading. Half way between is true TDC. Adjust the degree wheel so it will indicate TDC properly and recheck. The piston should stop the same number of degrees before TDC and after. You may need to tweak the degree wheel a bit until you get the same reading BTDC and ATDC. Now you can remove the piston stop and used a dial indicator to verify the cam is installed correctly per the supplied timing card.
If you have a flat tappet cam be sure to use the supplied lube and a breakin oil. If it is solid lifters, reinstall the rockers and adjust the lash. Hydraulic should be fine.
With #1 at TDC you can put air into the cylinder to install checking springs before installing the rockers on #1. You can use the dial guage to check piston to valve clearance at 15° to 10° BTDC for the exhaust and the same ATDC for the intake. 0.080" required for the intake, 0.100" for the exhaust.
Now if you got new valve springs you can replace them rolling through the firing order at TDC for each piston with compressed air holding the valves closed.
You can replace the intake now or later. If you chose to replace the heads now, replace the springs with the heads off. Put the checking springs in #1 of the new head to check piston to valve clearance. Use the modeling clay method.
Have fun and good luck.
Self, what have we got to start with and where do we want to get to for a completed project? Now what steps are attainable where as we/I progress we/I do not have to take stuff apart or replace something already bought and installed.
I would get to know and join a local car club. In most the friendly kidding between Mopar, Chevy and Ford guys is just that, friendly kidding. You will get to know guys that know engines, transmissions, body work and interior. Many times you can barter your talent/time to get help with some portion of your project. This can save you a ton of money or heartache.
Check the body over real good for signs of hidden rust and possible accident damage that was not repaired well. Best to find it and repair before installing the drive train and having to remove it again for access.
With intending to run 3.23 gears, plug your ears with those that are telling you that your only source to bliss is a hi stall converter. Cruising speeds with those gears will let the converter slip constantly and not "lock up". This is different than a lockup converter.
While the engine is out check it over for signs of leaks. Check for a rear crank seal leak or front pump seal leak on the trans. Easy to split them apart and replace now. Might be good insurance to just replace the pump seal and rear main now.
Intake manifolds, carbs and exhaust being external parts are fairly easy to exchange any time. Heads are a little more involved but not by much.
With that in mind, I would consider the cam swap now with the engine out and lots of room. Factory cams in the 318 2V, the Chev 305 and Ford 302 had about 195° @ 0.050" and 0.390" valve lift. These engines perk up well with a cam of 204° to 210° intake duration and 0.425" valve lift. Getting into the 220°@ 0.050 lift intake on the cam still leaves you with good torque for the street and good drivability. With this you could be looking at closer to 0.475" to 0.500" valve lift. Valve covers and rocker shafts have to come off as well as the harmonic damper and front cover. Get the cam kit with lifters and a good double roller timing set. You can build a piston stop by cutting an old spark plug at the crimp that holds the ceramic in, cutting the ground off and pushing the ceramic out. It is a bit of a fight. Grind a bolt to have a round end that fits snugly into the plug body and sticking out about 1/2" to 3/4". To degree the cam you install this in the #1 plug hole to stop the piston as it comes up. Note the degree wheel reading. Rotate the opposite direction until it stops and note the degree reading. Half way between is true TDC. Adjust the degree wheel so it will indicate TDC properly and recheck. The piston should stop the same number of degrees before TDC and after. You may need to tweak the degree wheel a bit until you get the same reading BTDC and ATDC. Now you can remove the piston stop and used a dial indicator to verify the cam is installed correctly per the supplied timing card.
If you have a flat tappet cam be sure to use the supplied lube and a breakin oil. If it is solid lifters, reinstall the rockers and adjust the lash. Hydraulic should be fine.
With #1 at TDC you can put air into the cylinder to install checking springs before installing the rockers on #1. You can use the dial guage to check piston to valve clearance at 15° to 10° BTDC for the exhaust and the same ATDC for the intake. 0.080" required for the intake, 0.100" for the exhaust.
Now if you got new valve springs you can replace them rolling through the firing order at TDC for each piston with compressed air holding the valves closed.
You can replace the intake now or later. If you chose to replace the heads now, replace the springs with the heads off. Put the checking springs in #1 of the new head to check piston to valve clearance. Use the modeling clay method.
Have fun and good luck.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I think some of this argument comes down to what you even consider what peppy is ? what's a decent street performer. Probably somewhere around 14 second car for most give or take, but even then there's many variables some cars might be great in the 60ft and lay down at the end or vice versa and the many variations in between.
In the street most aren't doing full out 1/4 mile runs, at most probably 1/8 mile or less, so 50-600 or so feet, so 0-60 mph, 0-80 mph , 20-60 mph , 20-80 mph etc.. Are gonna be more relevant and even then there's gonna cars of same performance but some might be stronger out of the hole than others. And this is where I think some/alot of this argument is, a stronger out of the hole is gonna feel faster and possibly be more fun especially during short burst and the other car could feel more doggie ish but both could produce the same overall results. I'm sure most of us would like to have a car that reacts strong from out of the hole but are you willing to do the mods to get that results, CR stall gears displacement etc.. ?
For some out of the hole might be very important that's where they do most of their playing around, others might care more about how it reacts when they drop it a gear at 20-40 mph and hammer it for a few hundred feet, some that like twisties will want the power to be there when they accelerate out of the corners etc...
It all comes down to the individual wants, needs, compromises, etc.. Unfortunately most are vague in their wants and needs and their compromises usually hinder getting the results of what they really want.
In the street most aren't doing full out 1/4 mile runs, at most probably 1/8 mile or less, so 50-600 or so feet, so 0-60 mph, 0-80 mph , 20-60 mph , 20-80 mph etc.. Are gonna be more relevant and even then there's gonna cars of same performance but some might be stronger out of the hole than others. And this is where I think some/alot of this argument is, a stronger out of the hole is gonna feel faster and possibly be more fun especially during short burst and the other car could feel more doggie ish but both could produce the same overall results. I'm sure most of us would like to have a car that reacts strong from out of the hole but are you willing to do the mods to get that results, CR stall gears displacement etc.. ?
For some out of the hole might be very important that's where they do most of their playing around, others might care more about how it reacts when they drop it a gear at 20-40 mph and hammer it for a few hundred feet, some that like twisties will want the power to be there when they accelerate out of the corners etc...
It all comes down to the individual wants, needs, compromises, etc.. Unfortunately most are vague in their wants and needs and their compromises usually hinder getting the results of what they really want.
Call Oregon Cams
Get a converter
Get a converter
I run early 318 heads with small valves 208/214 delta cam, and 9:1 in a w100 @ 4700 ft. 800 Rochester on a stock spread-bore. Save your money. Pulls from the bottom and hold 85on the freeway with ease 29” tire 3:55. 302 heads aren’t magic.cheapest, easiest and best bang for your buck is to recurve the distributor.
Oregon torque converter /6 with 318 register. Happy motoring.
Dale, this is as false as it gets. Modern converters do not "slip" as you describe. You can have a converter flash to 5000 RPM and yet idle around like a stock converter on the street, until you do a launch. Then and only then does it flash to its given flash stall. Your thinking is correct though for the 70s and 80s. But not anymore. You really need to read up or call a good converter company, because you're giving out bad information here.
The 80’s converters were like stepping on a hot marshmallow…
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I don't see anything on the exhaust lift and the duration at 0.050. If stock exhaust manifolds are used,wouldn't a dual pattern cam be a good choice?
People generally go by intake duration for cam size/level it's up to you to pick the exact one from all the different cams out there he's just ballparking it.
That's a pretty good description. lol
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