First time having manual brakes, are mine bad?

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Finally finished up the brakes yesterday and they literally few the same as before. Pretty bummed about it. Here’s the specs. Any help would be appreciated. About to bring the car to a shop to make sure I’m not missing something. Pedal is hard and the stopping power is down right dangerous for road use in my opinion.

All brand spanking new:
Aluminum master cylinder
Full inline tube line kit
Stainless hoses front and rear
Seals replaced on 2 front calipers
Semi metallic pads front
Drilled slotted power stop rotors front
Shoes and hardware rear
DOT 5 fluid
No bubbles on bleed


Couple suggestions:

1. I would suggest doing some simple tests - Jack up the car, spin the wheel and have someone hit the brakes. Does the wheel lock right up? Do this for the back wheels too to isolate a potential problem. It could be related to both front and back brakes. If the wheel locks up, can you turn the wheel with the brakes applied? If the system is as bad as you say it is I would think you will be able to manually turn the wheel with the peddle applied.

2. Pump and hold the peddle hard. Open the bleeder. When you open the bleeder screw does the fluid come shooting out?

3. Did you inspect/change/research which metering blocks to use? There could be a problem with them.

4. Are you sure the master cylinder push rod is adjusted properly or is correct?
 
Couple suggestions:

1. I would suggest doing some simple tests - Jack up the car, spin the wheel and have someone hit the brakes. Does the wheel lock right up? Do this for the back wheels too to isolate a potential problem. It could be related to both front and back brakes. If the wheel locks up, can you turn the wheel with the brakes applied? If the system is as bad as you say it is I would think you will be able to manually turn the wheel with the peddle applied.

2. Pump and hold the peddle hard. Open the bleeder. When you open the bleeder screw does the fluid come shooting out?

3. Did you inspect/change/research which metering blocks to use? There could be a problem with them.

4. Are you sure the master cylinder push rod is adjusted properly or is correct?

I will try jacking each end up and testing them.

Fluid does come shooting out on all 4 bleed ports.

I did not do much research on the block. I just ordered mine from Dr Diff, it was the only one on the site.

I reused the stock push rod. The adjustable one I bought didn’t have a thick enough retainer bushing to stay inside the master. It would pull out too easily.
 
It’s a 15/16”

With a 15/16" bore master on mine, I get almost 1600psi of pressure to my front calipers and almost 1300 to the rear. Those are pretty comparable to what a power booster gives. My braking doesn't feel as powerful as my daily driver, but with enough pedal pressure it'll lock everything up. Maybe test the pressure to make sure the master is working as it should. I just removed a bleeder screw and screwed in a pressure Guage.
 
I will try jacking each end up and testing them.

Fluid does come shooting out on all 4 bleed ports.

I did not do much research on the block. I just ordered mine from Dr Diff, it was the only one on the site.

I reused the stock push rod. The adjustable one I bought didn’t have a thick enough retainer bushing to stay inside the master. It would pull out too easily.
 

Have someone step on the brake and watch the calipers. Do they expand and "squeeze" the rotors? You can even spread the pads away to make space and watch them push back out when the peddle is applied. I would watch all four do this to try and isolate if you have poor braking because you are only using the back or only the front to stop the car. If two wheels are the only ones functioning right, the brake system will act the way your are describing.

Hence the metering block question again. The post about taking a pressure reading is a great suggestion. If you want to do a visual because you don't have a gauge yet you can at least check to see if you can turn the wheels with the brakes applied. A backyard garage method but simple.

You may have to buy a new metering block. It's the only thing you haven't replaced. If there was a way to bypass the block and go direct that would tell you but a pressure gauge should tell you what you need to know.

I am a bit surprised that a technical support individual who sold the components hasn't troubleshooted the problem for you.......I'm sure you must have googled this?
 
If your pushrod is adjusted too short, it will take a lotta pedal travel to get adequate fluid out
If you pushrod is too long, and the power pistons do not park properly to open the C-ports, then eventually the pedal goes lower and lower.
The only thing that cause your front brake fluid to return to the M/C is the Seal-retraction.
The thing that causes your rear brake fluid to return, is the Return springs.
The front brakes do about 85% of the stopping so IMO, you need to start there.
So;
On slider-type front calipers, they slide on the bracket-ways or on the pins. If the caliper does not slide, the brake pressure will bend the steel backer, until the friction hits the rotor, but will not make full contact and so you will be trying to stop the vehicle with very little pad area. The steel backers will now act like springs, and the pedal will seem hard, but maybe the pressure gets all used up in bending the pads. Sometimes the pads get stuck in the grooves ,in the ways, that got there mostly by rattling; you gotta get rid of the grooves. I hard braze them full, then file it all back into shape.
If your caliper has slider-pins; they have to be smooth, dead-straight, and tight in their rubber o-rings, but they gotta be able to slide. I lube them with pure silicon grease; but I take them out first and clean the O-ring grooves, which have a tendency to rust up, which squeezes the O-rings tight enough to stop them from sliding at regular intervals.
As to used calipers or high-mileage calipers, they have square-section O-rings and dust boots. But after years of service, the "O-ring Grooves" rust up the same way and this negates the Seal-retraction, and so the pads tend to drag, which hears the fluid which can with a closed compensating port , lock up the wheel, or if the Port is open, then just glaze the pad which then loses it's power to create friction. If it only happens on one side, the car will pull to the other side.
To prove the C-port is working, have a helper pump the pedal about 3-times and on the last pump hold the pedal down. You, pop the cover off the M/C and watch the fluid by shining a light into the reservoir. Now comes the important part, have your helper very slowly begin to let the pedal up, very slowly. This action will allow the fluid to return, but, if there is any air in the system, it will unload the fluid in one push, which can produce a 3foot geyser that can hit the underside of the hood. This is bad news because brake fluid melts paint. If this happens to you, put the lid back on, and clean up the mess right away. Use plenty of brake-cleaner, and then soapy-water followed by a hot-water rinse. Without air in the system, you will only get a little roiling in the bottom of the reservoir that feed the front brakes.
However, after three pumps, the rear shoes have gone out as far as they can, and when the helper releases the pedal, the return-springs are gonna work hard to push the fluid back to the reservoir, so you could still get a gusher in that reservoir. The key to success of this operation, is to release the pedal very slowly...... especially the last inch or so as the C-port opens.
So what does this prove?
Well if you only get roiling in both reservoirs, then your C-ports are opening, and the pushrod, if nothing else, is at least Not too long.
If you get no gusher in the reservoir that feeds the front, then there is no air in those lines.
If you get a gusher in the reservoir that feeds the rear brakes, this could indicate air, or it could just be the return springs returning to their parked position. To determine which it is, just crank your rear adjuster in hard so the shoes cannot move, then retest. No gusher now proves no air.
See now, I have told you about the possibility of ruining your paint-job, so I will NOT buy you a new one.
Finally, as to your rear shoes; In all likelihood the radius of the new shoes will NOT match the radius of the drums. If true, that means when the shoes go out, they will only be contacting the drums in a couple of tiny windows. They will need time to wear in. If your drums are used, and were not machined, then, they may Not be round, and May be Bell-mouthed; both of which will reduce the rear brake performance, even more.
Below is a cross-section view of a dual M/C.. Study it to see how it works.Sorry it is so small, but it was one of the best I could find; just upsize your screen a bit. There are a few things I want you to notice:1) the frontmost reservoir feeds the rear brakes, and 2) there is a hydraulic chamber BETWEEN the the two power-pistons, and it HAS to be full of brake-fluid for the brakes to properly function. The bench-bleed procedure usually gets the job done. 3) the little springs in there are to return the pistons back to their parking spots, to open the C-ports to recharge the lines, and to be ready for the next stop to feel exactly like the last, with a high and hard pedal. If your pedal is not parking up high under the dash, you gotta fix that, on account of those little springs are not able to compensate for a stiff or seizing pivot-pin.
Ok I gave you almost everything I got so
Happy HotRodding.

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Ok now hang on; lemmee tell you something that just occurred to me from a quick look at the drawings.
If you studied it you will notice that the rearmost piston slides right on by the discharge port until the frontmost piston become hydraulically locked and can go no further. Then it starts to push fluid out to the calipers.
Say your rear shoes were seriously out of adjustment. That front piston might just bottom in the M/C bore.
The rear piston would NOT start to pressurize until that front piston has stopped, with no regard as to why it stopped.
You would of course, have a very low pedal.
So now, the rear brakes would hardly be contributing and all the braking would have to be done by the front calipers. If simultaneously the front pads are Not contacting the rotor properly, but the steel backs are acting like springs ...... yeah I can see that requiring a two-foot, max-effort attempt, and scary results.
 
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Did some google searching.....

Some things mentioned - not to exclude the rest of the input....

1. possible that the MC diameter is not large enough to work the larger caliper reservoir beings the back brake MC reservoir is smaller. and is designed to work with rear wheel cylinder with less fluid.

2. One of the kits mentioned stated that the emergency brakes must be adjusted properly for the rear calipers to work right. Make sure you follow the directions for adjustment. If not adjusted properly the piston would have to travel to far and run out of travel. Does your emergency brake work properly when applied? One suggestion I read was to partially apply the emergency brake and then apply the brakes to see if there is a difference. That would suggest travel distance problem - out of adjustment.

3. Your not getting brake pressure to the rear brakes. Check your pressure and for any restrictions kinks, clogs foreign matter inside the brake lines...Perhaps flushing the lines.

4. Oh - did you mix up the front and back brake lines to the master cylinder? It happens.....

5. Make sure you are connected properly at the proportion valve.

6. Get a MC with a piston diameter as small as possible

You are not alone! Here is another mopar forum thread complaining about the same thing. You will have to take your time and read through all of the suggestions. It still comes down to pressure.

New disc brake conversion doesn't work

Some people mention brake peddle ratio switching brake peddles from a manual brake system, installing a 7/8" master cylinder, adding an adjustable proportioning valve..etc.

Hope you find the problem because many people have had this problem and would be eager to hear about a resolution!

Good luck!
 
If you just set the emergency, that moves the shoes into contact with drum, the wheel cyls will move out to the shoes when pumped and will not be returned cuz the shoes are held out by the emerg.
Do your bleeding, and air test with emerg on, then there no need to try and un-adjust the rear brakes after you jambed them on with the adjuster ( in some cases VERY difficult ) after you're finished.

With the "air test", with the shoe pegged to the drum, any violent, or volume (geyser/fountain) of fluid returning to the M/C, is not caused by the shoes returning, it can only be air in the system, compressing with the pedal, and expanding when released .
Cheers .
 
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Hey, I would suggest not giving up on this. Go through it until you get it. This is a right of passage that you can conquer and you will be a brake friggin expert by the time you are done. The thing is....its something simple. Anyone can replace a part, diagnosis is the hardest part of this game and you are in the hunt!! its exciting!! all these dudes want to help and will.....One little itty bitty word of advice......seems stupid given the subject matter....but throw some pictures in with the struggle. you would be amazed at what these guys will pick up and see!

pull rear drum...take picture
same for the front
pedals to see height of pedal.

Stay in the fight!
 
Seems to me starting with the change to single piston disc brakes in 73 Mopar added a booster so manual brakes either point to added discs or removed booster... Either way the M/C bore size becomes a question...
I had a factory stock 1973 Duster that had very few options...318, 904, manual front disc and an AM radio. That was it. Rubber floor mats, heater/defroster, no vinyl top or light group.
Manual front disc A body cars may not be the majority but they did exist. I've converted several drum brake cars to front disc using no booster and they usually have excellent braking. I had a 73 Challenger that didn't stop well with manual disc. Hard pedal and poor stopping.
My '70 Charger has had a few different brake configurations including a manual 4 wheel disc setup. That also left me with hard pedal and poor braking.....this was the same with 4 different master cylinders of different sizes.
 
The 15/16” master cylinder should be fine with manual 73+ disks and rear drums.

I have run my ‘74 Duster with a bunch of different manual brake combinations. I started with the stock 1-1/32” manual master cylinder with the stock 10.95” rotors and 2.6” piston slider calipers and 10x2.5” disks out back.

Then I went to 15/16” manual master cylinder and have run
  • B/R body 11.75” disks/11x2.5” drums
  • DoctorDiff 13” cobra disks/11x2.5” drums
  • DoctorDiff 13” cobra disks/DoctorDiff 11.7” disks.
I also ran my ‘72 Challenger with the 11.75” disk/11x2.5” drum brake combo with both the factory master cylinder and power booster and then the manual 15/16” master cylinder, and much prefer the feel of the manual set up. It definitely takes some leg, but both cars stop great. And honestly, the Duster stopped well with all of the different brake combinations. It stops better now with the large 13”/11.7” disk/disk combo, but the braking was never scary even with just the factory set up.

If you’re used to driving modern cars with power boosters and/or ABS, a manual disk, non ABS system will feel very different. You have to push the pedal, it’s not a light touch. But the car should also still stop well when you apply the brakes.
 
I would be curious to know if the newer cars with factory four wheel disc brakes today have MCs with the same size reservoirs front and back?

Maybe If you try to compare these conversion systems with existing factory four wheel disc setup components it may help.
What proportion valves, metering blocks, master cylinder configurations do factory 4 disc systems have? Then you are comparing apples to apples. I would even consider mating components from other systems into your system that are known to work. At this point you have a custom brake system so as long as it bolts together who cares if you have to bend or fit your own brake lines to work with components known to work.

Fluid dynamics is fluid dynamics. You just need the right expert to lay it out and it will most likely be something very simple. One thing is for sure. Many others will benefit from the solution. Don’t give up.
 
The reservoir has nothing at ALL to do with the immediate function of the brakes, how well they stop, the pressure generated, put that any way you want

My car is still "apart" but when it was running I had 73/4 Duster/ demon disk up front, and a Linc Versailles disk brake For 9" out back. "Just for to try it" I left the bone stock DRUM '67 master on the car. They have residual valves which I COULD HAVE left alone for a test, but I punctured them with a nail and ran it. Worked GREAT

THE ONLY CAVEAT with "equal" halves of the reservoirs is that A: It usually means a drum master and that you have residual valves in both outlets and B: that as the pads wear you must be a "little" more diligent about monitoring fluid level because there is less of it to take up for pad wear

Other than that THEY WILL WORK FINE if the BORE is within reason

Things I would keep in mind:

1...I have no idea if 15/16 is what you want for bore, do some research
2...REthink your pad/ shoe material Maybe the shoes / pads are glazed or poor material.
3...REcheck if the rear drums have been turned oversize HAVE THEM MIKED if you can find someone who knows how and has a drum mike

If none of the above pans out, it is time to buy some fittings and a pressure gauge and see if you actually have decent pressure at both ends. "I suppose" it is possible that such hardware as the warning switch, prop valve, etc has a problem, I would think this is rare

There "are guys" who claim that hoses can swell and plug when old, but I have never seen this happen.

Is it possible that you have calipers that are all rusted up? Can you move the pistons, or have you tried? Remove calipers, use a big "C" clamp and gingerly clamp into the middle of the piston around the back of the caliper. If you don't get the thing off center and wedged, it should move fairly easily
 
A M/C is merely a pump, nothing magic.
A piston displacing fluid.
A servo/wheel cylinder receives the fluid, and changes it to mechanical motion.
The mounting is/can be vehicle specific.
I build race cars, I generally use Toyota M/C's because they are a vast variety if bore sizes, and it really helps having a remote reservoir .
Make of parts is irrelevant, mounting and bores are all that's important .
Racecar tires are wide and sticky, and heavily used, they also need to work .
The only magic is remembering this dude .

Pascal's law - Wikipedia
 
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I would be curious to know if the newer cars with factory four wheel disc brakes today have MCs with the same size reservoirs front and back?

Maybe If you try to compare these conversion systems with existing factory four wheel disc setup components it may help.
What proportion valves, metering blocks, master cylinder configurations do factory 4 disc systems have? Then you are comparing apples to apples. I would even consider mating components from other systems into your system that are known to work. At this point you have a custom brake system so as long as it bolts together who cares if you have to bend or fit your own brake lines to work with components known to work.

Fluid dynamics is fluid dynamics. You just need the right expert to lay it out and it will most likely be something very simple. One thing is for sure. Many others will benefit from the solution. Don’t give up.

Oh boy.

First, the OP is still running a disk/drum set up, so I don’t know why you’re talking about a disk/disk set up.

Second, reservoir size doesn’t change the pedal effort or the braking capabilities at all- unless the reservoir is too small and the ports suck air when the pedal is on the floor.

Third, I’m literally running the same master cylinder the OP now has. The reservoir size is not a problem. I have run the same size calipers and wheel cylinders. And I have run that same master cylinder with a disk/drum set up and disk/disk.

The OP does not have a mismatched parts problem, all of those parts work fine together if they’re functioning properly.
 
Are the shoes in the rear installed backwards? They are self energizer and if the trailing shoe is in backwards they will not clamp as good.

Back in the GTE days I had a F350 Super Duty dully Bucket truck. Drunk *** company shop mechanic put the rear drum shoes on backwards. Worked OK for flat ground but going down a twisty STEEP hill, I had a "Run Away' truck. Both feet on brake pedal and pulling on the steering wheel, E-Brake on trans tail shaft and down shifting to 1st kept me from going over the guard rail. At the T section at the bottom of the hill I blew thru the Red light and ended up in a field. Front right rotor caught fire.

The mechanic retired two weeks later, before the investigation was final.
 
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Started working on these, the passenger side front bleed port was clogged. My guess is the brakes have not been bled in a long time. Fluid was rust colored. Just waiting on some more freer time to finish replacing the hoses which had some small cracks and then wrap up. But with my initial bleed the pedal felt night and day better!
A Dollar Store turkey baster pulls that old junk fluid right on Out, quick and cheap
 
Are the shoes in the rear installed backwards? They are self energizer and if the trailing shoe is in backwards they will not clamp as good.

Back in the GTE days I had a F350 Super Duty dully Bucket truck. Drunk *** company shop mechanic put the rear drum shoes on backwards. Worked OK for flat ground but going down a twisty STEEP hill, I had a "Run Away' truck. Both feet on brake pedal and pulling on the steering wheel, E-Brake on trans tail shaft and down shifting to 1st kept me from going over the guard rail. At the T section at the bottom of the hill I blew thru the Red light and ended up in a field. Front right rotor caught fire.

The mechanic retired two weeks later, before the investigation was final.
Wow Man, Great Drivin' with Jesus Guiding! Yer Blessed to Share that Tale!
 
Are the shoes in the rear installed backwards? They are self energizer and if the trailing shoe is in backwards they will not clamp as good.

Back in the GTE days I had a F350 Super Duty dully Bucket truck. Drunk *** company shop mechanic put the rear drum shoes on backwards. Worked OK for flat ground but going down a twisty STEEP hill, I had a "Run Away' truck. Both feet on brake pedal and pulling on the steering wheel, E-Brake on trans tail shaft and down shifting to 1st kept me from going over the guard rail. At the T section at the bottom of the hill I blew thru the Red light and ended up in a field. Front right rotor caught fire.

The mechanic retired two weeks later, before the investigation was final.
Yep, against what ya would think is logical, the longer shoe goes rear, not front, if I remember right
 
I did mess up my back. Out on L&I two weeks and months of PT and Chiropractic adjustments. At the T section and RED light, the field was 10 feet below the roadway and the impact of jumping a Bucket truck was bad. The Mechanic was gone when I came back to work on light duty. Truck was auctioned off as scrap but the whole Bucket system and maintenance bins were good.
 
I did mess up my back. Out on L&I two weeks and months of PT and Chiropractic adjustments. At the T section and RED light, the field was 10 feet below the roadway and the impact of jumping a Bucket truck was bad. The Mechanic was gone when I came back to work on light duty. Truck was auctioned off as scrap but the whole Bucket system and maintenance bins were good.
Damn.... You Were Blessed. I had a crane operator release the brake, with me in the middle of a 90' x74' 4 pc Chinese Baptist church truss set. The idiots I worked for didn't want me to brace them ( that's bs, takes to long, bla bla) well, we came back the next day, and they were all leaning, I crawled way up there, tied em off, he pulled em with the crane, past where they needed to be, let em rip with me up there, and drove away before I could wipe and climb down....
 
Ok got lost in the OP with multiple posts. Disc front drum back. Got it. Don’t beat me up for trying to help.

having said that simple imo. Back brakes most likely not working. Check pressure. Many posts have made reference to smaller MC better. I would still Jack the car up and try to turn the wheel with brakes applied as a simple test if you don’t have a gauge.
Good luck- done
 
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