Missed on this combo?
- Thread starter Ironmike
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Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Well I have a bunch of skin in this game, and this is exactly the BIG question in my head. Those flow numbers look really good. I think they might even be better than the advertised numbers. I have learned recently though, that flow numbers don't always tell the full story.
The engine was leaked down only after running the BPE's, as I thought there might be a problem there. Leak down was great. Actually better than the motor in my car now.......
I think maybe it's all about the 2.08 intake valve in this casting compared to the Edelbrock. In a 4.040 bore it's shrouded. I had to re-shim my rockers when I switched heads. The best way for me to describe it is with the Eddy's the valves were substantially closer together. More room between the cylinder wall and the intake valve. I thought it odd that I had to move rockers around.
My dyno guy, as I have stated before said 2 important things. 1 was too big under the seat ring and 2, approach to seat was bad.
What these things mean to me is damn near zero.
My intake was not just port matched. It was blended very nicely almost to the plenum. I have done quite a few Super Victor's now, and they all run very good. I left it about 40 thou smaller than the head at the bottom of the port. I always do it that way.
I'm really glad they're trying to figure it out. My shortblock is still here. I told Rod more than once, I'd be happy to be the test mule. My dyno is 20 minutes away.
What strikes me odd is Mr Miller came all the way over here from moparts. With 5 posts here over the years it almost seems like he showed up here to make me look bad.
Wonder why nobody called me with flow numbers and such? I told Rod emphatically over the phone to please keep me in "the loop", as I STILL need heads.
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Oh 2 more things. I cc'd one chamber here and with my valves it came out to 70 cc. Give or take .5. Hope I remember this right cause it damn sure was not 74cc. Not with my valves.
And, with the BPE heads on, the Super Victor had to be cut to fit. The angles were wrong and from the front to back was .012 off. It did fit the Edelbrocks just fine, untouched from the factory.
Just wanted to mention this. I never posted it before.
Also, I'd buy these same damn heads back in 2 seconds if someone said "Hey, we found something and fixed it!"
And, with the BPE heads on, the Super Victor had to be cut to fit. The angles were wrong and from the front to back was .012 off. It did fit the Edelbrocks just fine, untouched from the factory.
Just wanted to mention this. I never posted it before.
Also, I'd buy these same damn heads back in 2 seconds if someone said "Hey, we found something and fixed it!"
justinp61
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I seriously doubt that Brett came here to make anyone look bad. More likely to post good information that everyone can learn from.
I asked on Mopart and got no response so I'll ask here. Did you ask Dave Hughes for a refund on his heads?
I asked on Mopart and got no response so I'll ask here. Did you ask Dave Hughes for a refund on his heads?
I'm looking forward to the day Jim gets a hold of some BPE heads and does some testing.
brett miller
Member
Side by side, yup. Looks like it's a hair higher. A .200 hair. Dyno guy says the floor looks waaaybetter, and the overall shape is "whole different animal". Like I said, he really liked the. Hehasn't liked ANYTHING Mopar the 9 years I'veknown him. I dunno, maybe he's sick.....
Well I took them to my machinist/dyno guy/jedi engine master. He cc'd them more precise and they are a full 72cc.
Also, something I didn't notice, the exhaust port is raised .200 compared to the Eddy. And shaped MUCH better. My TTI'S are pretty tight. I hope things dont change down there...He was actually REALLY impressed. I mentioned maybe getting one flowed and he said don't bother. Told me there's a reason he sold both his flow benches. Pretty experienced guy. He thinks they may be the casting that Promaxx is using.
Really gave me some ****....."All this good stuff and all your time in this motor, it's about time it gets some REAL heads." "Money well spent." Geez, I had to sell one of my AR 15'S AND load a thousand rounds for the guy. He thought I was kidding...
Back to the milling, now you guys have me thinking again. Man I don't want to screw up my combustion chamber. I also cannot tear it apart again. After this upcoming dyno session, it absolutely has to go in the car.
Mill, don't mill.....mill, don't mill......
Really we are talking 1/2 point in compression. Using Summits calculator it's
11.45:1 vs. 10.96:1. Doesn't sound like much.
Looks like heads where all good then they became junk? Above quotes are from you
The reason the CR is more of a deal than just looking at a number is (and this is just my opinion) cam is wrong and it needed all the CR it could get Be real nice if we had some cylinder pressure numbers.
You have made more negative comments about me and my character/ego than I have about you I only questioned what was going on with this engine.
You have stated that my Big ego is in the way and now I am trying to make you look "Bad"
I just posted flow numbers and some air speed data and some of my thoughts on what is going on.
No personal attacks at all I can assure you.
Not all engines work out the way you think they should.
In 2011 engine masters I picked up more torque and score with a 6" piece of pipe on the collector than different cams and intakes that I tried. Close to 100 points of score and 60lbs of torque just one tiny part to this big puzzle to make Magic happen.
Well I took them to my machinist/dyno guy/jedi engine master. He cc'd them more precise and they are a full 72cc.
Also, something I didn't notice, the exhaust port is raised .200 compared to the Eddy. And shaped MUCH better. My TTI'S are pretty tight. I hope things dont change down there...He was actually REALLY impressed. I mentioned maybe getting one flowed and he said don't bother. Told me there's a reason he sold both his flow benches. Pretty experienced guy. He thinks they may be the casting that Promaxx is using.
Really gave me some ****....."All this good stuff and all your time in this motor, it's about time it gets some REAL heads." "Money well spent." Geez, I had to sell one of my AR 15'S AND load a thousand rounds for the guy. He thought I was kidding...
Back to the milling, now you guys have me thinking again. Man I don't want to screw up my combustion chamber. I also cannot tear it apart again. After this upcoming dyno session, it absolutely has to go in the car.
Mill, don't mill.....mill, don't mill......
Really we are talking 1/2 point in compression. Using Summits calculator it's
11.45:1 vs. 10.96:1. Doesn't sound like much.
Looks like heads where all good then they became junk? Above quotes are from you
The reason the CR is more of a deal than just looking at a number is (and this is just my opinion) cam is wrong and it needed all the CR it could get Be real nice if we had some cylinder pressure numbers.
You have made more negative comments about me and my character/ego than I have about you I only questioned what was going on with this engine.
You have stated that my Big ego is in the way and now I am trying to make you look "Bad"
I just posted flow numbers and some air speed data and some of my thoughts on what is going on.
No personal attacks at all I can assure you.
Not all engines work out the way you think they should.
In 2011 engine masters I picked up more torque and score with a 6" piece of pipe on the collector than different cams and intakes that I tried. Close to 100 points of score and 60lbs of torque just one tiny part to this big puzzle to make Magic happen.
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
They were my heads sent to him to CNC. He said exactly what I'm thinking now. 560 horsepower sounds like they did did pretty darn good, regardless.
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Ok well ya got me on a few things.
I don't think I made any negative comments about you at all, other than maybe an ego thing.
Honestly, I never heard of you before seeing the intro post about the heads. Still not quite sure who you are and what exactly you do. I have no way to know anything bad about you.
After I first told Rod about the results, he called me a day or so later and said you wanted to ask me a few questions.
He gave me your number and said to shoot you a text and it may take awhile for you to call, since you're so busy. I texted you with all my phone numbers May 4th at 849 PM. I'm still waiting for you to reply.....
That sorta thing may make me wrongly assume what I assume. If it's me....I'm calling that guy in 10 seconds flat. But I'm not really that busy.
All I can tell ya is I wanted them things to be good in the worse way. Look back on this thread. When I got them I couldn't wait to show the guys here....Pretty proud I had them. Lots of "new toy " pictures that post.
I spent, I'd say, a good amount of time talking to Rod before and after the sale. I really felt he was a good guy. I felt really bad for him being in the middle on this deal. Look back on this thread. See how many times I said that.
Good luck with your heads. Hope you get to dyno them and get it figured out.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Hate to be a broken record...but I've fixed a bunch of heads with blown out bowls by using the CORRECT 50* valve job. I don't like the bowl to be over 88% of valve diameter with a 45* seat. I know Chad Spier does almost 92% on some of his 23* SBC stuff and he makes it work. He does own a wet flow bench and I don't.
If your bore is doing some shrouding (which I doubt) you can notch the bore and fix most of it.
My big ***** about the 2.08 valve is you can't get the port big enough to support that valve. All it does is increase low lift flow numbers. That's almost never good in a restricted port situation.
Did the exhaust port ever get flowed? If they raised the exhaust, you may have an issue with the exhaust port being too good for the intake port.
Just thinking out loud.
If your bore is doing some shrouding (which I doubt) you can notch the bore and fix most of it.
My big ***** about the 2.08 valve is you can't get the port big enough to support that valve. All it does is increase low lift flow numbers. That's almost never good in a restricted port situation.
Did the exhaust port ever get flowed? If they raised the exhaust, you may have an issue with the exhaust port being too good for the intake port.
Just thinking out loud.
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Well YR, I have no idea what I'm going to do next, but I am now totally against a 2.08 valve for something like this. I just think it's too damn close to the cylinder wall.
Flow has to be affected for a least part of the circumference.
What do you mean by blown out bowls?
I never had those heads flowed.
justinp61
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Ok, I forgot you already had the heads and Hughes did the port work. Yes, 560 is good power.
My 408 had Edelbrocks ported by Curtis Boggs, was a 10.9-1 pump gas street/strip deal and had a Hughes flat solid cam. It ran 6.57 with 1.38 60' at #3260 on radials. It was never dynoed but would guess it was close to your number.
Is there a reason you dynoed with mixed gas? My last three small blocks have all had aluminum heads and were 11.4-1, 10.9-1 and 11.2-1 and ran great on pump 93. The 434 in my Dart now is 11.2-1. When I dynoed it we started and tuned it using 98 leaded race gas. After tuning the carb and timing we drained the carb and pumped the cell out and filled it with pump 93. It made 30 more hp and 24 foot pounds of torque with no other changes. I didn't believe it was right so we cooled it off and made another pull with the same results.
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
I wanted to have all bases covered, fuel-wise. We dyno'd both sets of head with pump 93 and pump/race mix which was 100. The posted numbers represented best pulls. So the Bloomer heads made the most power with the mix. And more timing that the Eddy's, too.
I was surprised. It shoulda been fine on 93. Lots of things surprised me that day.
You know, I have a couple buddies that swear by the old W2 set up. I'm kinda getting it now.
I was surprised. It shoulda been fine on 93. Lots of things surprised me that day.
You know, I have a couple buddies that swear by the old W2 set up. I'm kinda getting it now.
W2, off set rockers, large unrestricted no pushrod pinch port, flows well with light work, hi flow potential is excellent.
Moves a larger volume of air.
Biggest problem, not made anymore.
Moves a larger volume of air.
Biggest problem, not made anymore.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
It was pretty good HP but the torque was really really weak (for a 4" arm) which means the cylinders were not getting filled-period. The SuperVictor is a sensitive intake that likes the port flange to be LARGER than the head port especially on the floor--I leave a .075" step/mismatch-this helps torque. Take a look at what happens to the Big Chevy guys when they use the "wrong" intake. This is why I never get too worked up over port matching--it usually isn't worth the time on lower RPM , street/strip stuff. J.Rob
Hemirunner
Well-Known Member
My brain seems to be on idle this morning. Are you saying the intake likes to be larger than the head or the head should be larger than the intake?
And are we saying this is only applicable to certain port sizes or is this the case with this intake no matter what the csa is at the head?
I think that every intake will work differently stock or modified on different engines, stock stroke or stroker, with larger swings in performance as the cam head design and compression go up.
How each intake works on a given combo can enhanced or destroyed the engines performance based on the work done to it or not.
Engines can be finicky. The more power you seek, the harder it is to get there.
I have sat and seen two VERY similar engines use different intakes to get what they got.
And this is also why a place like Wilson gets big bucks for there sheet metal intakes.
How each intake works on a given combo can enhanced or destroyed the engines performance based on the work done to it or not.
Engines can be finicky. The more power you seek, the harder it is to get there.
I have sat and seen two VERY similar engines use different intakes to get what they got.
And this is also why a place like Wilson gets big bucks for there sheet metal intakes.
Ok re read you post. It was a quote from ironmike, about after the dyno that the eng had to go into the car. That you quoted, not that you were going to install it in your car.
MY bad
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Wow. That's very surprising to me. I never thought the intake port should be bigger than the head. I guess I just picture the fuel air mix crashing into the "step" on the head and pooling or something...
Something else I learned here.
Torque. Yeah. That was the only reason for the switch of heads. I could easily have lived with 560 horsepower, but like you said, with a 4 inch stroke it was just weak as hell down low. Un usable in my mind.
Hemirunner
Well-Known Member
I thought it was strange that someone with so much dyno experience would make a blanket statement about an intake like that. There's so much that's combination dependant that you can't paint with that broad of a brush. I port matched my super victor to the victor heads as the intake was already smaller than the head. As that blanket statement indicates, I should have opened the intake up much larger. I would have liked to have been able to do extensive testing with this intake but I usually don't get R&D time on the dyno.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
It wasn't a blanket statement as I have pretty extensive experience with the Super Victor, so in this case it is my actual experience that I am sharing. Maybe you should have enlarged your intake much larger than you did, In your case I have never used those heads so I cannot predict what the results would be. Unlike you I DO get extensive R&D time on my dyno so maybe you made me realize I give away too much and I'll shut my trap from now on. J.Rob
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
wonder if there are any dyno sheets that could be found with the super victor intake and similar combo, maybe that's what the torque curve is with this intake??
how much would a half point in compression ratio affect the torque and power?
how much would a half point in compression ratio affect the torque and power?
1.5%.
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