Suspension, Brake Shoes and master cylinder for 65 Cuda'

[JeffreyLee]

I began to rebuild the front suspension on my cuda with the PST rubber kit. Decided to keep the stock drum brakes with new shoes and wheel cylinders. I plan to replace the master cylinder with a 2 port type and necessary proportioning valve. Drums measure 10" across, having a hard time finding shoes to fit. Are these unique shoes? What decent master cylinder will fit with a minimum of fussing? Also Prop. valve recommendations would be great. Thanks in advance guys!
Jeff

 

[Mattax]

No proportioning valve. That's for disk brakes.
When the tandem master cylinders were introduced, they incorporated a brake warning switch into the distribution block. If you're not adding that light, then it just needs tees. Use SAE inverted flare connections and never compression fittings.
Tabdem Master Brake Hydraulics:
1967 Chrysler Imperial Dual Hydraulic Brake System from the Master Technicians Service Conference Session 232

As for the drums and shoes, not sure what '65 had.
According to this, through '64 A bodies only had 9" drums.
Brake Service (Session 204) from the Master Technician's Service Conference
By '67, v-8 and HD option came with 10".
Whichever you have, it should not be that rare. But remanufacturers play games...
On your car's shoes there will be a number stamped in the metal backing plate. That's the FMS number, an industry standard, often incorporated in the after market part number.
If you know yours are correct, then that's the number that should be on any replacement.

 

[BillGrissom]

My 65 Dart has 10" drums. I had no problem getting shoes a few years ago. Did you check rockauto? Rear drums were rare, but now new ones are ~$30 ea. I used a ~1972 "hardware kit" from Autozone, with the improved style self-adjusters. I had to re-use my shoe pins since the new ones were for a slightly wider shoe. I installed an adjustable prop valve, but just to allow future front disks. I used a booster/MC from a ~99 Breeze w/ ABS (see avatar, booster also for future disks). I re-used the factory distribution block. I plugged the rear port and adapted the top port to 3/16" tubing (from 1/4"). I plumbed the rear w/ an in-line coupler. Autozone had the fittings in bubble packs. I posted their PN's several times (search) or check ebay.

BTW, if you change lower ball joints, 1 bolt goes in a threaded hole in the spindle. I found that out after beating it out (thought rusted). Someone recently said the rear hole is the threaded one. Don't mix up L & R spindles. That confused me for a while since I couldn't read the PN's on the forgings.

 

[JeffreyLee]

I'm at a crossroads here guys....I have been wrenching on front end parts for the last week on my Cuda. I am finally to the last stages of trying to dislodge my torsion bar from the lower control arm. Headed to Harbor Freight to buy a set of pipe clamps to see if I can knock the Torsion bar backwards enough to remove. Yes, I took the T clip off! I will get that torsion bar off, and I then plan to take the upper and lower control arms to a machine shop to have the bushings pressed out/in. Clean up, paint, new brake shoes and wheel cylinders, shocks, and I'm off to the next thing. I'm sitting here with seals bags of PST front end rebuilding parts in rubber. I am reaching the point of no return. I can't help but think, given all the work done to this point, and having basically just the K member and sway bars left, Should I just bite the bullet and put on front discs? If so what type? Aftermarket like from PST or the Kelsey/Hayes approach which is to keep all the original suspension components and just add the minimum necessary disc brake components. Adds about 1000.00 yes? I'm really doing this project for fun and not any hardcore driving. This awesome web site has given me a path to follow so far, Three months ago, I didn't know a idler arm from a rocker arm, but I'm getting the hang of it! Thanks guys

 

[JeffreyLee]

BTW, I still have the old, rusty, single port master cylinder up in the engine bay....I have to do something about that, as I'm cleaning things up, so that work/cost enters into the equation......

 

[Mattax]

I would not. The 10s are good size for the car. That plus considering where you are in your learning curve. Better you get it done and drivable. I read too many people here and moparts getting into brake swaps and then having problems. You can always make changes if situations (uses) demand.

OTH, if you really do want to swap, for the K-H you can simply copy the factory if you're willing to get the parts. Depending on where you drive and store the car, with the K-H disks I found the pistons didn't hang up from rust as quickly if the fluid is bled every year. The last time mine hung up - I went for the stainless steel pistons. Everything has drawbacks, the floating calipers can hang up too. What is gained with disks is easier to change pads vs shoes and they can tolerate higher heat input with less issues.* Disks do not have any self-energizing, so they take more pedal effort - and this is why most bigger cars have boosters. With the A-bodies - its a matter of preference.

*This is all relative. I had four twenty minute sessions on a road course this fall (novice group, but still over 100 mph in places) and none of my brakes hit 575 degrees. I had the shoes, pads, drums and disks all marked with temperature sensitive paint to determine if I would need to consider a higher temperature lining for track use. Not at this stage. Not even close!
You've got a light car with good size brakes. Are you taking it down any long hills with heavy braking? Ones that you smell people's brakes on? You know where you drive better than any of us.

As to your t-bars. Adjusters backed all the way off? I would not use a pipe wrench. Nothing should mark (dent or score) a spring. That will cause a failure.
Buy or make a clamp that you can hit with a hammer.
The shop manual shows a version you can copy. After market versions are available to buy. You'll need a heavy hammer - mini sledge or engineers hammer. Hit it hard. Its the shock (impact) that makes it move. Kindof like splitting logs.

 

[JeffreyLee]

Thanks Mattax, I just got the torsion bar out! removed the spindle nut on the lower control arm, put a prybar between the K frame and the control arm and it

pushed right out....Victory! Pulled the lower control arm out and n ow I'm sitting here with a table full of parts.

I think that I agree, taking things down to this level has been a big job for me, I think drums will work fine. Now a couple of new questions...

• The rubber bushing that came in my PST kit sitting next to the mangled strut rod bushing (pictured) doesn't look like the right thing or is it?
• How does the lower control arm spindle come out so that I can have the bushing (pictured) pressed in place? Do I have a machine shop press that out as they press the new bushing in?
• Upper control arm will need to have those bushings pressed in also I assume? How do I remove the ball joint from the upper A Arm?
• Is there anything else I should be doing at this point? It seems like I could go on and on with new brake lines. master cylinder (which is probably a a good idea)...
• Thanks

 

[JeffreyLee]

As this thing morphs from a discussion about brakes to a discussion about suspension, is there a way to move my entire thread over to the Mopar suspension forum?

 

[Mattax]

As this thing morphs from a discussion about brakes to a discussion about suspension, is there a way to move my entire thread over to the Mopar suspension forum?

Maybe the easiest is start a new thread when you have questions or just want to share.

Thanks Mattax, I just got the torsion bar out! removed the spindle nut on the lower control arm, put a prybar between the K frame and the control arm and it

pushed right out....Victory!

Great!

View attachment 1715107956
Now a couple of new questions...

• The rubber bushing that came in my PST kit sitting next to the mangled strut rod bushing (pictured) doesn't look like the right thing or is it?

That actually looks like the original. There's two piece versions that were used as replacements - but the original part was one piece like that.

• How does the lower control arm spindle come out so that I can have the bushing (pictured) pressed in place? Do I have a machine shop press that out as they press the new bushing in?

Yes the bushing is pressed out.

• Upper control arm will need to have those bushings pressed in also I assume?

• Yes. IIRC there also is a tool for those.

  How do I remove the ball joint from the upper A Arm?

  The screw out. Usually done when mounted on the car. It's special socket and the biggest breaker bar you can lay your hands on.

  [*]Is there anything else I should be doing at this point? It seems like I could go on and on with new brake lines. master cylinder (which is probably a a good idea)...

What's the condition of the vehicle and what's your immediate objective?

For doing the work, a '65 Plymouth Shop Manual will be a big help. The factory service manuals have good pictures and are pretty well written. I personally prefer paper copies but digital versions for '65 are probably available.
The 1970 Hamtramck Registry Library Page (1965 - 1969) will have many of the service bulletins and updates. (that includes corrections for the service manuals)
Tips will also be in the tech booklets and filmstrips Master Technician Service Conference - Chrysler's Training for Mechanics
A website called mymopar also has a lot of stuff. It would be wrong for me not to mention them as a source. However - since they are profiting on copyrighted material they don't have rights to - I feel they've crossed a ethical line in their sharing of publications.

 

[Mattax]

Here's specialty suspension tools available new today for our cars.
Front Suspension Tools
I bought a few of them from Just Suspension before that company was sold and moved down south - not sure they offer anymore. But these at Mancini look exactly the same.

 

[JeffreyLee]

My front end rebuild kit from PST came with a stabilizer link kit...I can't find anyplace it looks like they go....Am I missing something or is my car?

 

[Mattax]

My front end rebuild kit from PST came with a stabilizer link kit...I can't find anyplace it looks like they go....Am I missing something or is my car?

If you are referring to an anti-sway bar, your car doesn't have one. Unfortunately that was an option not many people chose back then. It also came with Formula S and I *think* HD suspension packages. You can peruse the dealer info at Hamtramck Historical if your curious.
Not sure of your goals, so I'll just leave it at that.