T 56 swap question

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Belgiquebasterd

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Hello, currently doing a T56 swap onto a Gen III hemi motor. Setup is not going into a A body but into a ram truck. I came here since it seems like a lot of knowledgable people visit this forum, and since it is a popular swap sharing my problems/findings might be good to know for other people doing the swap as wel as helping me with my swap?

This is the setup I have:

5.7 hemi
T56 out of a 2005 dodge ram viper SRT10 truck
Quicktime 8081 bellhousing (stock replacement for a 2009 challenger)
ACT twindisc clutch (stock replacement for a 2009 challenger)
2009 challenger slave cylinder

I have a spare damaged hemi block which I use for mock up of this project, when assembling all the parts I ran into a problem. The input shaft bottoms out on the clutch disc hub before the front bearing seats in it's bearing cup, as you can see on this picture, I believe the reason for this problem is the fact that I'm using a challenger bellhousing and clutch which is designed for the T56 magnum/tr6060 and not for the older T56.

DSC_0058_zps65a3e386.jpg


I have assembled with and without the front plate and the distance from bellhousing to the end of the input shaft (syncro cone) is the same, so this should eliminate a problem with the front plate, when I assemble without front plate I can see that the input shaft splines 'bottom' out in the clutch hub, hard to take a picture, this was the best I could manage.

DSC_0053_zpsf8f2461b.jpg


I have done some measurements and the input shaft needs to go an additional 3mm forward before it seats in it's bearing cup in the front plate. The locating dowels on the T56 front plate to the bellhousing are 10mm long, as a solution I could install an aluminium spacer plate in between the transmission and the bellhousing.

Now my question is, am I overseeing something, or would the spacer plate be a good solution?

Two issues that will arise that I can think off, possible many more will arise, that's why I'm here to get you guys opinions O:):

The clutch slave will need to be measured and shimmed out to compensate for the spacer

The pilot bearing will need to move forward, the stock pilot bearing is a smaller bearing pressed into a spacer sleeve, I was thinking of removing the smaller bearing, and have a thicker spacer sleeve machined to position the pilot bearing correctly again. Anyone see any issues?

DSC_0055_zps8ecb2869.jpg


DSC_0057_zps5d8052ff.jpg


So again my question, am I missing something or can I simply solve this issue by making a spacer to go inbetween the trans and the bellhousing?

And since everyone loves pics, some more of all the parts :cheers:

ACT flywheel that comes with the twinsdisc clutch kit

DSC_00011_zps13577e0b.jpg


DSC_00031_zpse77ec8a7.jpg


DSC_00041_zpsa26c1ff5.jpg


2009 challenger slave

DSC_0006_zpsbf4b8406.jpg



Thanks, Christof.
 
Im thinking the factory Challenger TR6060 must have a different input shaft. Or the flywheel is to thick. The TR6060 might have more spline depth because they have always been used with a twin disc clutch setup even from the factory.
 
72BBSwinger said:
Im thinking the factory Challenger TR6060 must have a different input shaft. Or the flywheel is to thick. The TR6060 might have more spline depth because they have always been used with a twin disc clutch setup even from the factory.
Click to expand...

The flywheel is part of the ACT clutch kit which is specifically for the challenger. Since it's a bit of a thrown together bunch of parts I was suspecting problems. Hopefully this one can be solved with putting a spacer between the trans and bellhousing. Really don't wanna buy a different input shaft.
 
I would at least get the specs of a TR6060 input to know for sure. As long as you have enough engagement in the pilot bearing a spacer would work to. You need to also take into account that the clutch discs need room to release fully when the pedal is pressed.
 
Are you running out of spline depth? If so, I'm betting a good machine shop could help you out with adding a little length to them. Just a thought.
 
72BBSwinger said:
I would at least get the specs of a TR6060 input to know for sure. As long as you have enough engagement in the pilot bearing a spacer would work to. You need to also take into account that the clutch discs need room to release fully when the pedal is pressed.
Click to expand...

Any idea how much extra room is needed in the splines for the clutch to release? I need 3mm/0.11" for the input shaft to seat properly in it's bearing cup, the dowels on the front plate of the T56 are 10mm/0.39" long, I was thinking of putting in a 5mm/0.19" spacer inbetween the bellhousing and the T56, that way I still have 5mm/0.19" of protrusion of the T56 locating dowels into the bellhousing and should give me 2mm/0.07" of room on the input shaft splines for the clutch discs. So would that 0.07" be enough, or do I need more?

Thanks
 
80fbody said:
Are you running out of spline depth? If so, I'm betting a good machine shop could help you out with adding a little length to them. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

No racing shops where I live, most machine shops are of the bigger kind who do large production runs and not small work like this. Been looking for a machine shop for a while now to do smaller things, but no luck.
 
Belgiquebasterd said:
Any idea how much extra room is needed in the splines for the clutch to release? I need 3mm/0.11" for the input shaft to seat properly in it's bearing cup, the dowels on the front plate of the T56 are 10mm/0.39" long, I was thinking of putting in a 5mm/0.19" spacer inbetween the bellhousing and the T56, that way I still have 5mm/0.19" of protrusion of the T56 locating dowels into the bellhousing and should give me 2mm/0.07" of room on the input shaft splines for the clutch discs. So would that 0.07" be enough, or do I need more?

Thanks
Click to expand...

No idea how much, but my guess would be .050 minimum.
 
Man I forgot I needed this spacer. Does anyone make one for sale or do we have to make one ourselves? I can get some made by the laser cutter.

Riddler
 
72BBSwinger said:
No idea how much, but my guess would be .050 minimum.
Click to expand...

Good guess :D, ACT clutches answered:

Christof,

Thank you for your email.

Our T1S-D03 clutch kit is designed for the 08-13 Dodge Challenger 5.7L, 6.1L, & 6.4L so I am not sure on fitment for a older transmission.

The discs should need a maximum of .040” to engage/disengage properly.

Thank you,

Dean Williams
Customer Support Supervisor
Advanced Clutch Technology
Click to expand...
 
Riddler said:
Man I forgot I needed this spacer. Does anyone make one for sale or do we have to make one ourselves? I can get some made by the laser cutter.

Riddler
Click to expand...

Riddler,
What are you using for a motor and trans?
I have a 2004 Ram 5.7 and a 2005 SRT 10 truck T56, I'm guessing I'll need a spacer as well!
 
The 8074 SB Mopar to Viper T56 is the bellhousing is what needed on a Gen III. If you have that combo the only spacer needed is one under the throwout bearing to set clutch clearance to the throwout bearing. If you're using a Challenger tr6060 bell housing, you need a Challenger tr6060 trans or maybe just the input shaft from one.
 
72BBSwinger said:
The 8074 SB Mopar to Viper T56 is the bellhousing is what needed on a Gen III. If you have that combo the only spacer needed is one under the throwout bearing to set clutch clearance to the throwout bearing. If you're using a Challenger tr6060 bell housing, you need a Challenger tr6060 trans or maybe just the input shaft from one.
Click to expand...

Or a 5mm 5$ spacer, i hope lol. Reason for using the quicktime 8081 bell is that it's the only one that's big enough for a twindisc. If I'm buying an expensive bellhousing like the quicktime I might as well buy the 'best' one that can support future mods.
 
Please keep us posted.
I'm using pretty much the same motor and trans. i haven't bought the flywheel, pressure plate and disc yet but I like the idea of the twin disc.
:burnout:
 
B-basterd, can't help you with your dilemma, but I would love to hear about your Ram build. I have an '05 Ram Daytona and would LOVE to stick an "extra" 6.1 that I have into it with a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. For me, that would be the ultimate truck. Unfortunately for now, I must stay focused on my Cuda SRT8 build while I still have time left on this wonderful planet!
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
B-basterd, can't help you with your dilemma, but I would love to hear about your Ram build. I have an '05 Ram Daytona and would LOVE to stick an "extra" 6.1 that I have into it with a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. For me, that would be the ultimate truck. Unfortunately for now, I must stay focused on my Cuda SRT8 build while I still have time left on this wonderful planet!
Click to expand...

Check over on hemitruckclub and nadodge there are a couple of guys already running this setup. Know of 1 guy that has a turbo T56 ram and another that is supercharged.

Mine is a N/A 400 stroker with a soon to have T56.
 
72BBSwinger said:
I'll be using a RXT twin McLeod in mine. What is that ACT rated to?
Click to expand...

Ram, Mcleod, Centreforce and ACT all supply twindiscs for this application, I think quality they are all about the same. I choose ACT because it was the cheapest for me with import and shipping taxes.

ScreenShot2014-09-01at220801_zpsaf197b66.png
 
72BBSwinger said:
No, they are made to fit in the same confines as a single, and with the same 10.5" flywheel.
Click to expand...

Yes and no :), they are made to fit in the confines of the single disc challenger clutch. I know for a fact that the 8077 bellhousing is too small to fit a twindisc. That's the whole reason I used the 8081. Do you know of anyone that has fitted a twindisc into the normal GenIII hemi to T56 bellhousings?

The guy that suggested this parts combination to me originally used an 8077 bellhousing and his twin disc centreforce clutch did not fit.

Not trying to win any discussion here, just passing on info that I found t prevent someone running into problems later on.


Pm's I swapped with him about the parts, he used a centreforce clutch instead of the ACT and didn't run into my input shaft splines bottoming out problem so no need for a spacer:

Only just read your message last night , and working 12 hours a day don't have a lot of time to be on the forum.
Anyway. My swap consists of T56 out of srt 10 viper truck, factory challenger bellhousing will work, or QuickTime makes a direct replacement for the factory bell, forget the part number but it's on their website. I used a centerforce dual disc clutch designed for the challenger came with a steel flywheel,and I used factory challenger slave cylinder .
Pedal and hydraulics are out of srt viper truck, and I had to make my own coupler to join it to the slave cylinder. Transmission crossmember is also out of a srt 10, but your factory one will probably work maybe with slight modifications at worst. Used ram srt 10 driveshaft, and 1350x1330 u joint to hook up to the factory diff.
I have the srt aluminium driveshaft and u joint, I am not using it if you are interested, but you would still need to get the transmission yoke to mate the shaft to the tranny. I used dynatech stainless headers for a 2wd and they fit, also they are for sale. Not sure about fitment with other brands of headers. Used challenger starter, which sits on passenger side of bell as opposed to the factory position in drivers side, I was lucky my headers fit as they were about 1/8" Away from the starter. .
I had my PCM flashed by after hours mopar performance in Florida, to a manual transmission program, and needed to ground a wire out of the factory transmission harness, in order for the starter to engage.
Click to expand...


Yes Initially I used a 8077, and it was shorter and wouldn't fit a dual disk clutch, so I installed a 8081, which fit perfect, and input shaft was the perfect length as well, despite what some forums say.
Flywheel is a centerforce unit , it is a replacement for the factory flywheel so either way shouldn't have fitment issues.
As far at the shaft, if you find a yoke for your transmission, you can probably use the adaptor u joint directly into your factory shaft.
Just remember the viper truck yoke is larger than the car yoke, I made this mistake.
Click to expand...
 
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