Intermediate Shaft Wear

[Ricks70Duster340]

Several months ago I replaced the intermediate shaft on my 440 (solid roller cam) with a brass Milodon. The shaft that was in there was from 440 Source and I saw a video by Just Mopar Joe where he replaced his 440 Source shaft because it had play in it. Today I pulled the distributor to find out why the timing mark was jumping around. I put a screwdriver into the slot on the shaft and could wiggle it. I pulled the shaft out and found the teeth are really worn. Now it looks like I will need to pull the engine (only 1500 miles on the rebuild) because the cam likely is bad as well as brass shaving having gone into the engine.

Any ideas why the teeth on the shaft would have worn so much?

 

[abdywgn]

I "think" they are supposed to wear so the dist. gear on the cam is not damaged. Do they make a "non-metallic" gear? Did Comp have those for certain applications. Sorry if I'm speaking before researching, just off the top of my bald head.

 

[TT5.9mag]

What kind of solid roller cam core is it? Sounds like you had a mismatch of materials or a bushing causing the gear mesh to be AFU.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

The cam is a solid roller (#1476) cam by Oregon Cams. I was told by them to run a brass gear.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

I just called them again and they said I could run a brass or steel gear. He said the brass gear shaft is "sacrificial". My issue is now do I have shavings in my engine? I hate to tear things down to find out I did not need to, only change out the gear.

I talked to 440 Source about the issue. They said to only use a melonized steel gear, and the only source is Hughes Engines. The Hughes website said using a high volume and/or high pressure pump will accelerate the wear of both the intermediate shaft and cam gear. I am running such a pump. My cam gear looks good so hopefully only the shaft gear suffered. Maybe Hughes could make that gear more expensive... Ugh.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The brass shavings are likely in the oil filter. If you have a billet roller, you have to run either the brass gear or a composite gear. I think those are your only two choices with a billet core. Did you ask Oregon what the core is? They can grind cams on any core you want, so you need to be sire.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

The brass shavings are likely in the oil filter. If you have a billet roller, you have to run either the brass gear or a composite gear. I think those are your only two choices with a billet core. Did you ask Oregon what the core is? They can grind cams on any core you want, so you need to be sire.

He said to run a steel gear, which I understand is the melonized one. I called 440 Source and they verified that I needed to get the shaft that Hughes Engines sells. I also ordered a standard oil pump. Hopefully it makes enough pressure to satisfy the top of the engine! I'd hate to go too low and ruin my Harland Sharp rockers!

 

[TT5.9mag]

Can you post a picture of the bronze gear that’s worn out? We had a bronze gear eat itself during the Baja 1000 in 2017. We replaced with 200 miles left and finished the race. Tearing the engine down post race, there was bronze everywhere and all of the bearings were shot. I’d at least get a look the bottom end before making a judgement as to “run it” or “rebuild it”.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I just called them again and they said I could run a brass or steel gear. He said the brass gear shaft is "sacrificial". My issue is now do I have shavings in my engine? I hate to tear things down to find out I did not need to, only change out the gear.

I talked to 440 Source about the issue. They said to only use a melonized steel gear, and the only source is Hughes Engines. The Hughes website said using a high volume and/or high pressure pump will accelerate the wear of both the intermediate shaft and cam gear. I am running such a pump. My cam gear looks good so hopefully only the shaft gear suffered. Maybe Hughes could make that gear more expensive... Ugh.

Hughes is dead wrong about HV/HP pumps wearing the gear.

That’s what happens on bow tie and blue oval garbage.

Run a melonized gear. Replace the filter twice and send it.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

Can you post a picture of the bronze gear that’s worn out? We had a bronze gear eat itself during the Baja 1000 in 2017. We replaced with 200 miles left and finished the race. Tearing the engine down post race, there was bronze everywhere and all of the bearings were shot. I’d at least get a look the bottom end before making a judgement as to “run it” or “rebuild it”.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

Hughes is dead wrong about HV/HP pumps wearing the gear.

That’s what happens on bow tie and blue oval garbage.

Run a melonized gear. Replace the filter twice and send it.

I wish there was a way to check the bearings without a teardown. I'm sure the filter caught a lot of it, but there is likely some in the pickup screen too. What to do, what to do...

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I wish there was a way to check the bearings without a teardown. I'm sure the filter caught a lot of it, but there is likely some in the pickup screen too. What to do, what to do...

You can look at it if it makes you feel better but as a very general rule, the pieces that come off a brass gear are fairly big and not small pieces.

I'd start by cutting open the filter and see how much junk is in it. That should at least give you a general idea how much of that brass is floating through the engine.

I know it seems like its a quite a bit of stuff that comes off those gears, but really its not as much as you think and like I said they are generally pretty big pieces, easily caught by the filter.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Your gear doesn’t look nearly as bad as ours did. You caught it pretty early it appears. I’d definitely be cutting the filter open to have a look and that would determine if a bearing check was in order. Maybe run it a short time with a new oil change and compare the oil pressure to what it was new.

 

[GTX JOHN]

The Bronze gears are a race only piece designed to sacrificially
wear first. On our race cars we replace them every 50 to 75.
passes or once a year whichever comes first.

We do NOT run them on a street car period.

A melonized gear is what is on our street cars.

 

[GTX JOHN]

If it was me = the money I spend building my engines --
I would pull it apart OR at least pull the pan and inspect to
rod bearings and cut apart the filter for inspection!

 

[RustyRatRod]

He said to run a steel gear, which I understand is the melonized one. I called 440 Source and they verified that I needed to get the shaft that Hughes Engines sells. I also ordered a standard oil pump. Hopefully it makes enough pressure to satisfy the top of the engine! I'd hate to go too low and ruin my Harland Sharp rockers!

Well, If you are satisfied with that answer, then carry on and good luck!

 

[junkyardhero]

man, that looks about the *** end of hard luck.

i'd 100% flay the oil filter and see how much glitter there is floating about.

it's a judgement call on dropping the pan; it's like once you're there it's in for a penny, in for a pound so you might as well check the bearings.

it's more work, but i'd sleep better putting eyeballs on the bearings.

 

[Bewy]

Is the shaft worn where it runs in the bronze bush in the block [ assuming your block has the bronze bush ]?

 

[Car Nut]

View attachment 1716256762

View attachment 1716256764

What brand did you go with? Are you racing with that engine?

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

Is the shaft worn where it runs in the bronze bush in the block [ assuming your block has the bronze bush ]?

No wear where the shaft goes thru the bronze bushing

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

What brand did you go with? Are you racing with that engine?

I got the Milodon bronze gear, and no it went into a 100% street engine. The engine builder agreed that I should use that gear, but won't warrant the build now that the gear was eaten up.

 

[Car Nut]

I got the Milodon bronze gear, and no it went into a 100% street engine. The engine builder agreed that I should use that gear, but won't warrant the build now that the gear was eaten up.

Thanks, I bought the same Milodon bronze gear for my Howards hydraulic roller cam the one they recommended.

Can you replace just the gear with a melonized one?

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

Thanks, I bought the same Milodon bronze gear for my Howards hydraulic roller cam the one they recommended.

Can you replace just the gear with a melonized one?

You can buy just the gear (or shaft) from Hughes' website. The guy at 440 Source recommended I get the entire unit (shaft & gear) assembly because trying to pin the gear to the shaft is a bugger bear.

 

[Car Nut]

A melonized gear is what is on our street cars.

Are you using hydraulic or solid roller cams on your street driven cars?

How long have the melonized gears been out? I thought they were fairly new.

 

[Car Nut]

You can buy just the gear (or shaft) from Hughes' website. The guy at 440 Source recommended I get the entire unit (shaft & gear) assembly because trying to pin the gear to the shaft is a bugger bear.

I heard that, but $240 compared to $91 might be worth a try.