Ultimate daily-driver Gen II A Body to build

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My buddy is looking at a similar idea with an 70-72 dart. Lighten car as much as possible (fiberglass body panels,8.25, etc) fuel injection,turbo, overdrive trans, lower chin spoiler,light weight wheels/tires, etc. He is shooting for 35mpg with cars weight in the 2600lbs range. I think if he builds/balances motor with a light rotating assembly he can do it. Still in debate on 170,198,225ci.
 
rmchrgr said:
yeah, that's all fine and good but seriously, how many regular guys drove their street cars around with a B&M Hydro Stick? I'm sure there were a few lunatics out there that did but I'd have a hard time believing those units were common in 'daily driven' street cars. Even if I wasn't around, I know enough history to be confident that was not the case.

In any event, watch this video here and let me know if you think this car would be quicker with an auto.

And while we're on the subject of '60s shift-it-yourself automatics, let's not forget the temperamental Clutch Flite units. Weren't those an attempt at making an auto behave more like a stick?

Obviously this is your dream build thread so if you want an automatic, knock yourself out. For me, a 4 or 5 speed, whether it's OD or not would be my preference on the street. An automatic is just boring, plain and simple.

But just to prove that I am not 'against' auto transmissions in any way, I have a 904 in my Duster with a T.A. forward pattern valve body, no LBA. Its truly awesome when you shift it at 7,000 rpm but when you're putting around at part throttle, it kinda sucks.



Are we building a daily driver or a drag car?



Same question, are you driving on the street with your foot in the radiator or just regular part-throttle driving? It's hard to imagine that you would notice any significant turbo lag on the street.

Again, my DD Mazda is a turbo with a 6 speed stick. There's no lag. It's even factory de-tuned through second gear to prevent torque steer on hard launches but still, no lag that I can tell.



That's probably true if you're drag racing it. There's a cushion in the driveline to make up for whatever turbo lag exists in the combo and would certainly help to make launches more consistent. But, there are plenty of Supercharged cars that use a Lenco... again, are we talking a 2,000 monster here or a daily driver?



Yep.
Click to expand...


yup gonna be quicker with a properly set up auto and a converter that is matched to the set up. more consistent too. go to the track. walk the staging lanes. 9/10 cars run auto's. why? because they win races with them. stick cars are fun and nostalgic. lets see someone daily drive a lenco car.........
 
I actually started this build several years ago. Found a '63 Valiant V200 2 door for free and planned to build something that would be similar to an '01 BMW M3. Was even going to run a turbo slant 6. Plans included 17" wheels with 13" brakes, AC, cruise, EFI, a 5 speed stick (R154), stock style suspension with upgrades, etc. One of the crazier ideas was to narrow a spool mount k-frame to fit an early A-Body so I could get the better swaybar, idler and motor mounts. Even got the k-frame done, bought an R154 and got it mounted to the slant six, figured out my C5 Vette 13" brake kit, fitted an F-Body rear axle and found cheap Mustang wheels to run and put some .99 TB's and a 1 1/8" swaybar on it. But the car was too rusty and my 360 4 speed Duster was in much better shape, so I dropped it (thought long and hard about it first, though).

If I was going to start over (which I could, still have the lot's of the parts including the k-frame), I think the only thing I would change is the motor. I've lived with lot's of turbo cars and when they are well sorted they are fun, but when things wear out and go wrong I hate how they run. Plus, I found that I really, really, prefer the sound of a V8.

So, I'd go with a Magnum 5.2, if I were going to do it now. A 5.9 would be fine, too, but a 5.2 is more than enough for what I'd want.

And it has to be a stick. An auto might be faster, but I just so enjoy driving a manual. Went a couple years without one and just got back into a stick car (the shame, it's a '93 Accord, but better than walking), and I just can't tell you how much I missed the satisfaction of being part of the driving experience instead of along for the ride.
 
Here's how it sat before I started taking it apart. Never drove it, got way too far into it all at once.

Valiant068-1.jpg
 
Bill,
Why do you always start threads that make me want to spend money?
 
If you have 30K to spend I think I would look at swapping in a 3rd hemi with 6 speed trans. It will give you plenty of power and reliability. I would never swap my slant for a small block but I might for a 3rd gen.

With the 6 speed you could have steeep rear gears and still cruise at a reasonable rpm on the highway.
 
mcnoople said:
If you have 30K to spend I think I would look at swapping in a 3rd hemi with 6 speed trans. It will give you plenty of power and reliability. I would never swap my slant for a small block but I might for a 3rd gen.

With the 6 speed you could have steeep rear gears and still cruise at a reasonable rpm on the highway.
Click to expand...

That idea has enormous appeal...

A part of this whole rationale is to get this done with parts that would make the casual observer step back and say, "Hmmm... that is really interesting; who woulda thought..." in reference to the dated technology and complete lack of mechanical sophistication. I am so old that that line of thinking appeals to me... :(
 
rmchrgr said:
yeah, that's all fine and good but seriously, how many regular guys drove their street cars around with a B&M Hydro Stick? I'm sure there were a few lunatics out there that did but I'd have a hard time believing those units were common in 'daily driven' street cars. Even if I wasn't around, I know enough history to be confident that was not the case.

In any event, watch this video here and let me know if you think this car would be quicker with an auto.

And while we're on the subject of '60s shift-it-yourself automatics, let's not forget the temperamental Clutch Flite units. Weren't those an attempt at making an auto behave more like a stick?

Obviously this is your dream build thread so if you want an automatic, knock yourself out. For me, a 4 or 5 speed, whether it's OD or not would be my preference on the street. An automatic is just boring, plain and simple.

But just to prove that I am not 'against' auto transmissions in any way, I have a 904 in my Duster with a T.A. forward pattern valve body, no LBA. Its truly awesome when you shift it at 7,000 rpm but when you're putting around at part throttle, it kinda sucks.



Are we building a daily driver or a drag car?



Same question, are you driving on the street with your foot in the radiator or just regular part-throttle driving? It's hard to imagine that you would notice any significant turbo lag on the street.

Again, my DD Mazda is a turbo with a 6 speed stick. There's no lag. It's even factory de-tuned through second gear to prevent torque steer on hard launches but still, no lag that I can tell.



That's probably true if you're drag racing it. There's a cushion in the driveline to make up for whatever turbo lag exists in the combo and would certainly help to make launches more consistent. But, there are plenty of Supercharged cars that use a Lenco... again, are we talking a 2,000 monster here or a daily driver?



Yep.
Click to expand...

that wasn't it at all... converter tech in late 50's even thru the mid 60's was terrible... as you recall the ramchargers started out with a stick before finally getting an auto to START to behave (TQ problems). The flight and hydro both over came converter tech by using a clutch but only off the line. Today you see lenco's, Jerico's, and others using Clutchless and clutched setups. But you also see auto's dominating the field.

Your mazda would be terrible with an auto, because for what ever reason the continent of Asia cant make a good auto, no idea why as the sticks are great. each has its purpose and to be dead honest for anything other than a numbers chaser a stick is the way to go (or physical issues) just for fun. That said i like my manual reverse VB's and ratchet shifter, faster shifting and as consistent as i can pull the handle.

BTW, its a 727...
 

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I would love to do something very similar, maybe not to the extent of 400 hp, but something with great reliability and mpg. Modern upgrades to handling, something that could be driven in our winters up here.
Lets hope ideas keep coming and the chest thumping is kept to a minimum
 
4spdragtop said:
I would love to do something very similar, maybe not to the extent of 400 hp, but something with great reliability and mpg. Modern upgrades to handling, something that could be driven in our winters up here.
Lets hope ideas keep coming and the chest thumping is kept to a minimum
Click to expand...

This is where im going with my swinger. All factory suspension with upgrades im key places!

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=225462
 
ProStocker273 said:
My buddy is looking at a similar idea with an 70-72 dart. Lighten car as much as possible (fiberglass body panels,8.25, etc) fuel injection,turbo, overdrive trans, lower chin spoiler,light weight wheels/tires, etc. He is shooting for 35mpg with cars weight in the 2600lbs range. I think if he builds/balances motor with a light rotating assembly he can do it. Still in debate on 170,198,225ci.
Click to expand...

The disadvantage of a 170 on the street is that compared to a 225, the lack of low-end and medium-range torque will cause you to have to run boost levels (to get performance) than will rule out pump gas. The 170 can be boosted to provide performance levels to make it an effective daily driver, but it will need 20+ pounds of boost to get that. Just my opinion...
 
4spdragtop said:
I would love to do something very similar, maybe not to the extent of 400 hp, but something with great reliability and mpg. Modern upgrades to handling, something that could be driven in our winters up here.
Lets hope ideas keep coming and the chest thumping is kept to a minimum
Click to expand...

The 400 hp with reliability should not be a problem for a 12-pound/boosted /6 with a 5,000-rpm limit, and 18 degrees of spark advance. A 93-octane motor.
 
Bill Dedman said:
The 400 hp with reliability should not be a problem for a 12-pound/boosted /6 with a 5,000-rpm limit, and 18 degrees of spark advance. A 93-octane motor.
Click to expand...

never seen 93 in my life, only 92 the throught out my life in CA, trips to OR, WA, NV, AZ, UT, but its now 91 everywhere. Must be a back east thing...:banghead:

something to think about
 
dont wanna start another pissing match but the 400hp goal is not an unrealistic request. it is much easier with a v8 engine and can be done extremely easily with vertually any v8 platform and still maintain its reliability and mild manors. a stroker small block is hard not to make 400 or more hp with. when you start getting into turbo's and boost you start to open the window for more variables and trouble down the road.
 
DionR said:
.

And it has to be a stick. An auto might be faster, but I just so enjoy driving a manual. Went a couple years without one and just got back into a stick car (the shame, it's a '93 Accord, but better than walking), and I just can't tell you how much I missed the satisfaction of being part of the driving experience instead of along for the ride.
Click to expand...

Different strokes for different folks...

My own priorities put the advantages of an automatic ahead of a stick, but this is a dream-project, so we can all have the equipment we want.

That's why it's so much fun; no compromises! :)

Hell, I might opt for a converter-assisted 5-speed (overdriven) Lenco... who knows? :)
 
younggun2.0 said:
dont wanna start another pissing match but the 400hp goal is not an unrealistic request. it is much easier with a v8 engine and can be done extremely easily with vertually any v8 platform and still maintain its reliability and mild manors. a stroker small block is hard not to make 400 or more hp with. when you start getting into turbo's and boost you start to open the window for more variables and trouble down the road.
Click to expand...

we like slants, were not going to change out mind... you know every single slant guy on the face of the planet knows this... Let it go and move on, we don't do a small block because its boring, everyone has one...

Im in the process on trying to get 400hp out of an N/A motor, and bill the "valve size" issue may no longer be an issue...
 
Bill Dedman said:
The disadvantage of a 170 on the street is that compared to a 225, the lack of low-end and medium-range torque will cause you to have to run boost levels (to get performance) than will rule out pump gas. The 170 can be boosted to provide performance levels to make it an effective daily driver, but it will need 20+ pounds of boost to get that. Just my opinion...
Click to expand...

The lack of torque on a 170 could be made up with deeper gears in the trans while spinning it higher in the rpm range to make the hp, if you can make it run clean at the lower RPM's. For example, use an AR5/MA5 with it's 3.753 first gear and you wouldn't notice the low end torque loss (as much?).

That's what the OEM's are doing now anyway, lot's of gear in the lower ratio's and lot's of RPM to make horsepower.

No idea what you would have to do for an auto, though, maybe the a 6L60E, TCI 6 speed or a 700-R4?
 
Bill Dedman said:
Different strokes for different folks...
Click to expand...

Agreed. I was just sharing my thoughts since I had walked a similar path many moons ago.

For what it's worth, I have to still ask myself the question "auto or manual" since my wife doesn't like sticks. So, whatever transmission I chose has a huge impact on which car we could take on a trip. If I stick to my first love and keep building manual cars, it means I will either have to leave my car behind if we make a long trip (e.g. the Mopar Nationals), or accept that we can't switch driver's during the trip. I love to drive and it's not unusual for me to drive the entire trip when we go someplace, but those are usually only 8-10 hour trips, not the 3-4 day trips one way that I dream of in my UDD (Ultimate Daily Driver).

I've thought about something like an electronicly shifted auto that would lock up the converter and hold a gear if I wanted, and maybe be configured to shift automatically and with a soft shift with the touch of a button, but it just doesn't feel like a manual to me. Most of the high end new cars are going to some kind of a computer shifted manual, and you can even get a kit to shift a T56 that way (I think), but I don't think it would feel the same to me.

To each his own.
 
DionR said:
.

And it has to be a stick. An auto might be faster, but I just so enjoy driving a manual. Went a couple years without one and just got back into a stick car (the shame, it's a '93 Accord, but better than walking), and I just can't tell you how much I missed the satisfaction of being part of the driving experience instead of along for the ride.
Click to expand...

Different strokes for different folks..

My own priorities put the advantages of an automatic ahead of a stick, overall, but this is a dream-project, so we can all havee the eqipment we want.

That's why it's so much fun; no compromises! :)

Hell, I might opt for a converter-assisted 5-speed (overdriven) Lenco... who knows? :)
 
805moparkid said:
we like slants, were not going to change out mind... you know every single slant guy on the face of the planet knows this... Let it go and move on, we don't do a small block because its boring, everyone has one...
Click to expand...

When I found this thread, it was by doing a "New Posts" search, didn't even realize it was in the Slant Six forum until later. Not defending anyone, just saying that sometimes people get into threads not realizing the audience isn't who they thought it was.
 
805moparkid said:
never seen 93 in my life, only 92 the throught out my life in CA, trips to OR, WA, NV, AZ, UT, but its now 91 everywhere. Must be a back east thing...:banghead:

something to think about
Click to expand...

All of the premium pumps here are 93 and have been for years...
 
DionR said:
When I found this thread, it was by doing a "New Posts" search, didn't even realize it was in the Slant Six forum until later. Not defending anyone, just saying that sometimes people get into threads not realizing the audience isn't who they thought it was.
Click to expand...

no I understand but every comment of swap in a v8 is...
 
DionR said:
When I found this thread, it was by doing a "New Posts" search, didn't even realize it was in the Slant Six forum until later. Not defending anyone, just saying that sometimes people get into threads not realizing the audience isn't who they thought it was.
Click to expand...

My own strong preference for this project is to use a turbo slant six, but that's just ONE GUY. The nice thing about it, is if you like 383's (a great engine, BTW,) you could shoehorn one of them in there...

You pays your money ($30,000,00!) and you takes your cherce...:D
 
DionR said:
The lack of torque on a 170 could be made up with deeper gears in the trans while spinning it higher in the rpm range to make the hp, if you can make it run clean at the lower RPM's. For example, use an AR5/MA5 with it's 3.753 first gear and you wouldn't notice the low end torque loss (as much?).

That's what the OEM's are doing now anyway, lot's of gear in the lower ratio's and lot's of RPM to make horsepower.

No idea what you would have to do for an auto, though, maybe the a 6L60E, TCI 6 speed or a 700-R4?
Click to expand...

The whole idea of a 225/turbo is that it makes its power below 5,500 rpm... so, the valve train can exist with weak (OEM 340) springs and last indefinitely in day-to-day driving. You lose that with a 170 (high revs)... and gain what?

Nothing that I can see... a few pounds.
 
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