How about career advice?

So, at the beginning of June, I got let go from my position as an engineer at local manufacturing firm that made packaging equipment. They allege threats of violence, racial discrimination, and verbal abuse of a co-worker. Factor in an operations Manager that was a raging passive-aggressive pussy that didn't understand that I did NOT answer to him and took it personally when I told him that. He should've reviewed my contract.

All a load of BS, although a friend that's also a coworker did say I was too tough on one coworker (the one that supposedly lodged the complaint) sometimes. This is also the kid (age 23) that I advocated hiring, so I doubt the racial charge sticks (he was South American). The threats of violence is bullshit, and the verbal abuse charge is pretty damn thin in my book. I did get frustrated with the kid and talked to him AND my boss about having him not come to me, but this fella did NOT listen. Some are saying the Op Manager pushed him to file the complaint, but I digress.

The kid always came to my or someone elses' desk, but usually mine, because he was afraid of our boss who would literally stand in the middle of the office berating him, talking about how stupid he was, telling him he was about to get deported if he didn't straighten up, talked about f$%king the kids' new wife, etc. all at high volume so all in the office could hear. Clearly a great place to work but I stuck it out because they generally left me alone. That's paid off well (sarcasm).

I designed 70-80% of their new machine line without being prompted, gave them a stainless line for nearly the cost of aluminum, worked between 50-70 hours a week, had ONE sick day (the first of my life) due to carbon monoxide poisoning from an exhaust leak in the car (which I still made it to work on time and had to go home), gave up countless weeks for travel without additional time off, etc. I had ONE write-up in five years, and that was for the day that I got fired

Now they're telling all prospective employers that they wouldn't recommend hiring me.

Yeah, I'm a little pissed.

Will I go shoot up the place? Absolutely not.
Did I mention how they sleazed a customer when the customer called me at home after I left? Absolutely not.
Did I steal any data or otherwise sabotage anything that they did? Absolutely not. I'm taking the high road on this.

I had a solid job lead with a vendor who won't hire me because former employer said not to, and they have said this to others, too. I could easily go work for their competitors and this industry constantly steals employees from one another, but again, no under-bus tossing from me. I honestly didn't realize how much of my supervisor's job I was doing until I went to one interview with a non-competitor in the same industry. I think the guy thought I was lying to him about everything that I did in my 5 years at this company.

TLDR: So, what do you tell a prospective employer about why you left, how you left, and what the previous employer said?

Tell them your side of it. Calmly and without explicitives. And Pray they hear the truth.

If you are indeed an engineer , I would start my own business as a consultant . Until that happens, take any job that comes along but keep it on the lowdown . The least you tell people the better .

If you are still in good with someone over there put their phone number as POC for the company and have them speak for your former employer. May not be the best advice. I just put in my notice at work. The owner was holding my 401k contributions for months at a time. It was the 3rd time I called him out on it. Fortunately for me I had a job lined up beforehand. Best of luck to you. Like what was said before be honest about the situation and don’t get over excited when talking about it. Remain calm. You should be able to appeal the complaint with HR.

I had a similar fate at my last job. The new boss is an asshole just like me, because he is me. Hasn't been all roses, but, it's been gratifying to become self-employed.

Taken from the Dept of Labors web site

"If your previous employer gives a nasty reference to a potential employer, you may have an action for a defamation lawsuit. Employee reference laws prohibit employers from defaming a current or ex-employee to a prospective employer. In the employment context, defamation is an injury to one’s reputation or career as a result of the individual’s employer making false statements of fact about them. False statements of fact do not include the employer’s opinion. For example, if an ex-employer tells a prospective employer that "in my opinion, she was an incompetent worker,” it will be hard to prove defamation as this is the employer's stated opinion, and not a statement of fact.

However, if your employer exaggerates your poor work performance or tells prospective employers false, unproven facts about your performance, this may be defamatory. If you were fired because your employer suspected that you were stealing from the company, but this was never proven, the employer is prohibited from passing this information on to a prospective employer, as this would be a false statement of fact. Further, if you suspect that your ex-employer defamed you in order to terminate your employment, you may also bring a wrongful termination action against them."
I am not an attorney. I would suggest you contact one or the DOL.
If you were fired for the reasons you stated, they would have to prove it. I'm sure they couldn't if it were to go to court. So again, consult an attorney, but I would think you have grounds for a suit.
If nothing else, I would have an attorney write a strongly worded cease and desist letter to you're former employer.

I was let go from a job because I "yelled" at an employee. The kid worked for me and went missing for nearly an hour. I guess telling him to get his butt back to work hurt his feeling.

Just be honest. If you have any sort of documentation to back up your side, say an email etc about hiring the kid it may help.

gunbunny said:

Taken from the Dept of Labors web site

"If your previous employer gives a nasty reference to a potential employer, you may have an action for a defamation lawsuit. Employee reference laws prohibit employers from defaming a current or ex-employee to a prospective employer. In the employment context, defamation is an injury to one’s reputation or career as a result of the individual’s employer making false statements of fact about them. False statements of fact do not include the employer’s opinion. For example, if an ex-employer tells a prospective employer that "in my opinion, she was an incompetent worker,” it will be hard to prove defamation as this is the employer's stated opinion, and not a statement of fact.

However, if your employer exaggerates your poor work performance or tells prospective employers false, unproven facts about your performance, this may be defamatory. If you were fired because your employer suspected that you were stealing from the company, but this was never proven, the employer is prohibited from passing this information on to a prospective employer, as this would be a false statement of fact. Further, if you suspect that your ex-employer defamed you in order to terminate your employment, you may also bring a wrongful termination action against them."
I am not an attorney. I would suggest you contact one or the DOL.
If you were fired for the reasons you stated, they would have to prove it. I'm sure they couldn't if it were to go to court. So again, consult an attorney, but I would think you have grounds for a suit.
If nothing else, I would have an attorney write a strongly worded cease and desist letter to you're former employer.

I was let go from a job because I "yelled" at an employee. The kid worked for me and went missing for nearly an hour. I guess telling him to get his butt back to work hurt his feeling.

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This sounds very similar to filing an EEO complaint against the USPS. Don't know how true this is but I was told that the DOJ is the USPS legal defense. In my close to 20 years with the USPS I know of only one EEO complaint that went the employees way. It only took 9 or so years for it to get settled in court...

inkjunkie said:

This sounds very similar to filing an EEO complaint against the USPS. Don't know how true this is but I was told that the DOJ is the USPS legal defense. In my close to 20 years with the USPS I know of only one EEO complaint that went the employees way. It only took 9 or so years for it to get settled in court...

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Yeah, but that was USPS, and DOJ not DOL. We both know how that works out.
I will say that I successfully grieved many complaints with a DOL mediator hearing the grievance.

gunbunny said:

I was let go from a job because I "yelled" at an employee. The kid worked for me and went missing for nearly an hour. I guess telling him to get his butt back to work hurt his feeling.

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That is eerily similar to what happened to me. Kids these days....

Thank you for the advice! Does anyone want to pretend to be an employer prospect and call my previous employer to see what they say? ;-)

Engineers are among the most sought after employees in the market today. Keep smiling and keep looking. You will hit the job lotto.
Unfortunately your story is becoming more and more common. I have seen it in my industry as well.

jos51700 said:

That is eerily similar to what happened to me. Kids these days....

Thank you for the advice! Does anyone want to pretend to be an employer prospect and call my previous employer to see what they say? ;-)

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I’ll call them tomorrow and record the conversation. I’m in Texas, to record a conversation you only need consent from 1 party.

Focus on what you have done and can do. Everyone knows there are Jerks everywhere. Always remember, Job hunting is a numbers game. I was laid off twice. First time I got a 50% pay increase, and 100% increase the second time around. If you are a good Engineer, someone will snap you up and put you to work.

gunbunny said:

Taken from the Dept of Labors web site

"If your previous employer gives a nasty reference to a potential employer, you may have an action for a defamation lawsuit. Employee reference laws prohibit employers from defaming a current or ex-employee to a prospective employer. In the employment context, defamation is an injury to one’s reputation or career as a result of the individual’s employer making false statements of fact about them. False statements of fact do not include the employer’s opinion. For example, if an ex-employer tells a prospective employer that "in my opinion, she was an incompetent worker,” it will be hard to prove defamation as this is the employer's stated opinion, and not a statement of fact.

However, if your employer exaggerates your poor work performance or tells prospective employers false, unproven facts about your performance, this may be defamatory. If you were fired because your employer suspected that you were stealing from the company, but this was never proven, the employer is prohibited from passing this information on to a prospective employer, as this would be a false statement of fact. Further, if you suspect that your ex-employer defamed you in order to terminate your employment, you may also bring a wrongful termination action against them."
I am not an attorney. I would suggest you contact one or the DOL.
If you were fired for the reasons you stated, they would have to prove it. I'm sure they couldn't if it were to go to court. So again, consult an attorney, but I would think you have grounds for a suit.
If nothing else, I would have an attorney write a strongly worded cease and desist letter to you're former employer.

I was let go from a job because I "yelled" at an employee. The kid worked for me and went missing for nearly an hour. I guess telling him to get his butt back to work hurt his feeling.

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Being a retired employer, we were always advised to never give any statement about past employees other than "Yes they worked here from ___ to ___". I was asked once about an ex-employee and I said "We don't discuss their performance".

This included not giving positive feedback too.

I have been told that this has become standard practice and I'm very surprised that your former employer is taking such a low road. It does set them up for legal action (read expense) that would probably wouldn't go well for them, even if they won.

I would contact an attorney, your local labor office and anyone else that has anything to do with anything. A well placed letter to them could stop this nonsense in its tracks.

I had something similar done to me many years ago. A prospective employer called a friend of his that I worked with. This particular guy had a huge hard on for me in general and was one of those guys that love to kick other people when they are down. He gave me a bad referral, even though he was not in any position to do so. The company itself didn't, in fact, I had letters of recommendation from several of my supervisors and those were guys that usually never bothered with such things... But the one guy screwed it up for me. In the long run, it was good... I went on to a good job, then started a business with a couple partners, we bought two other businesses and I retired when I sold out. It's all good.

Thank you all for your advice. It's been a couple months, and I woke up today pissed off about it. Taking the high road sucks.

But I feel better after hearing what you have to say.

jos51700 said:

Thank you all for your advice. It's been a couple months, and I woke up today pissed off about it. Taking the high road sucks.

But I feel better after hearing what you have to say.

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In the end the high road is the one to take.

Anglo male under 50 stands little chance of winning a lawsuit. Unless you are rich of course. It would be about what you can PROVE they said about you. You are guilty until proven innocent in this one.

I've never met anyone truly happy while they were working for someone else. I like the earlier advice of take what you can find for now and keep a very low profile. You should have a client or two minimally to start an engineering business, but guessing.

Look at it this way sir, if you have your health, then you are bestowed with a priceless gift. Everything else will fall into place naturally. Be happy and take the world with a grain of salt.

First you should be upset.

To answer your original question.
It’s an old cliche to turn a negative into a positive.

You can say you didn’t fit in there because they were unprofessional (in other words: they suck) and say they are so bad they would put
themselves at legal risk by saying something negative about an ex-employee. You could say in an interview “nobody does this anymore because it’s just not worth the risk of legal action” - this alone gives your story credibility.

Just say it wasn’t a good environment and they did a lot of unethical and unprofessional things (have an example ready). You could also say that your last supervisor is a sociopath and/or was having personal problems outside work, don’t be afraid to say there was behavior that indicated substance abuse issues, and that you basically had to do his job for him and he was very jealous (have some examples). I would finish by saying I didn’t want to be there when something so bad happened it would be on the local news.

jos51700 said:

...our boss who would literally stand in the middle of the office berating him, talking about how stupid he was, telling him he was about to get deported if he didn't straighten up, talked about f$%king the kids' new wife, etc. all at high volume so all in the office could hear. ...
Now they're telling all prospective employers that they wouldn't recommend hiring me.

...won't hire me because former employer said not to, and they have said this to others, too. ...

TLDR: So, what do you tell a prospective employer about why you left, how you left, and what the previous employer said?

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F'n sue them for defamation...they CANNOT advise other employers not to hire you. In CA, that place's management would be turned over so fast it would make the stockholders head spin. There's about 6 labor laws broken right there. Don't say **** about your last employer, just tell interviewer what you did there and your responsibilities. In CA, they can only confirm your employment with your last employer, NOTHING MORE. They screwed you, Go work for the competition. You owe them nothing and sounds like you got a pretty good lawsuit to boot. Threatening someone with deportation? Oh man...so they are knowingly hiring undocumented workers? Call ICE and calmly put in an anonymous tip. Listen, they are ruining your chances of getting employment illegally. You want to take the high ground on this and just 'take the shots'? Go see a labor lawyer, many have free consultations.

jos51700 said:

Thank you all for your advice. It's been a couple months, and I woke up today pissed off about it. Taking the high road sucks.

But I feel better after hearing what you have to say.

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I was told recently that a previous employer can only say if they would hire you or not... That's it...

Pursue charges against the old company for deformation... That will get them to stop bad mouthing you...

^I'm gonna disagree with all of that SSVDP.

I used to interview candidates for BFGoodrich Aerospace. What will put you out of contention immediately is the notion of making your problem theirs. They are seeking solutions, not another problem to deal with.

Being upset is a waste of time. Pointing the finger and telling war stories to a potential employer could signal that you might be a liability rather than an asset. I would just say it was time to move on and that they have heard only one side of the story. But I would not tell your own story. It's all hearsay at this point, and you would be wasting everyone's time trying to justify yourself. Absolutely don't berate the former company or anyone in it.

I would say that you really liked the job for <X> years as you indicated. Focus on your accomplishments, hard work during that time and how you will hit the ground running resolving issues.

"The time is now, the place is here. Stay in the present. You can do nothing to change the past, and the future will never come as you plan or hope for."
-Dan Millman

"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same."
-Juan Matus

You’re right but in an interview I could ruin my previous employers credibility by pointing out how unprofessional (& unethical) they are.
Just by using the example they are doing something illegal by discussing ex-employees (but I wouldn’t say it was me) it’s obvious how bad it is there.
Which is also the reason I don’t want to be there anymore.

It’s a fine line though and can be difficult for an engineer to pull off.

I have also interviewed engineering candidates while at Chrysler. And was also in a similar position as the original poster. By “taking the high road”, being honest and accurate with a clear and consistent story it is not insurmountable.

IF... BIG “IF”... if I had to describe how bad it was the examples given in the original post are a good start. And I wouldn’t be afraid to mention my supervisor might be having personal issues which effected his work. The idea being I HAD to leave.

I really feel for the original poster.

Do you have proof that the old company dissed you when asked for a reference? If so I'd get a lawyer and have them contact the HR department to get a lid put on it. I doubt if HR knows that an employee is giving that kind of reference and would put a stop to it.

I agree that the only question a former employer can answer "legally" is "would you hire him again." Although a LOT of former employers add a lot more. It's against the law.

That said, tell the truth. As was already mentioned, calmly but firmly. The truth is always best.

SSVDP said:

You’re right but in an interview I could ruin my previous employers credibility by pointing out how unprofessional (& unethical) they are.
Just by using the example they are doing something illegal by discussing ex-employees (but I wouldn’t say it was me) it’s obvious how bad it is there.
Which is also the reason I don’t want to be there anymore.

It’s a fine line though and can be difficult for an engineer to pull off.

I have also interviewed engineering candidates while at Chrysler. And was also in a similar position as the original poster. By “taking the high road”, being honest and accurate with a clear and consistent story it is not insurmountable.

IF... BIG “IF”... if I had to describe how bad it was the examples given in the original post are a good start. And I wouldn’t be afraid to mention my supervisor might be having personal issues which effected his work. The idea being I HAD to leave.

I really feel for the original poster.

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No doubt.

I'm thinking the prospective employer should realize the former company's reference is not credible without the candidate having to point it out. It seems obvious there are personal issues between workers at the old company and the candidate. If condemning has to happen, then I wouldn't say much more than a short sentence and keep it general. Yes, 'tell the truth'^ is the best advice possible, but discussing details (hearsay) seems like a losing proposition and a way to break a person down. Dwells on the negative too. You don't want an interview to be centered around your perceived problems.

Still, and well said, taking the high road is not insurmountable. Be careful and calculated, and don't shoot yourself in the foot.