Effect of Air Density on Carburation

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Mattax

Just the facts, ma'am
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Posting this here because while I typed this out, the orignal thread went off track in a bad way and the mods locked it.

We actually pull in the same volume of air in Colorado as they would in Florida - the air just has less density.
Correct

air has less energy in it
Sort of, indirectly. It has less density so less O2 molecules per volume. Less O2 per volume consumed means less available for burning.

Thinner air passing through the venturis has less vacuum than denser air.
The depression is most dependent on velocity. In a simple pitot tube a change in velocity goes up by the square over 2, where the change in density effects the pressure just by 1/2.
In a venturi, the velocity is amplified.
only compounds the issue of poor signal at the boosters
Poorer but not poor. Within the parameters we're discussing, once boosters are delivering fuel, the signal is quite strong.
Bottom line is density is important to the main system but not significant enough to require recalibration of jetting in a street carb. The effect of the lower air density will be matched with a reduction in fuel delivered.
This is why you can race to the top of Pike's Peak with a carburated vehicle without making changes along the way.

This means the problem of an oversized carb will only be compounded at our altitude.
Compounded might be a little strong phrase, but yes, it will be worse. Probably the bigger effect caused by reduction in signal will be it will have to run on the idle system to higher rpms.

In the later emissions era you can find examples of carburetors with additional features for altitude compensation. And even those, when sold/serviced for high altitude had slightly different calibrations. The ones I'm thinking of are 2bbl Motorcrafts. Would have to look and see if it was neccessary on the 4 bbl versions of the same, or on any of the very late production OEM Q-jets and Holleys 4 bbls. Might not have been.
 
Glad you posted this for those wanting to learn. There is more to it than straight math.

Again, the math used to calculate CFM to chose a carb was wrong back then. It's wrong today.

Repetition of wrong concepts not only continues the mistake, it compounds it. Just like power valve timing. I come back to that because it is so horrible that it makes carbs do wrong things, and tuners making wrong tuning decisions because they aren't using the circuit as they should be.

Your example of Pikes Peak is an eye opener. Just another example of guys at the track changing jets like a mad man, when they should go through the carb, circuit by circuit and once they all work together, most likely you'll never touch a jet.

Carbs are very simple, yet complex devices. They are essentially self adjusting. Yet the ignorance remains in the public domain because people are unwilling to set aside life long thinking and actually learning how they work.
 
Humidity also plays a role that I still haven't nailed down completely living in FL. Water molecules displace the amount of O2 in the air that a carb can suck in. Lean is mean around 8 pm when the humidity in FL starts skyrocketing.
 
Posting this here because while I typed this out, the orignal thread went off track in a bad way and the mods locked it.

Correct

Sort of, indirectly. It has less density so less O2 molecules per volume. Less O2 per volume consumed means less available for burning.

The depression is most dependent on velocity. In a simple pitot tube a change in velocity goes up by the square over 2, where the change in density effects the pressure just by 1/2.
In a venturi, the velocity is amplified.

Poorer but not poor. Within the parameters we're discussing, once boosters are delivering fuel, the signal is quite strong.
Bottom line is density is important to the main system but not significant enough to require recalibration of jetting in a street carb. The effect of the lower air density will be matched with a reduction in fuel delivered.
This is why you can race to the top of Pike's Peak with a carburated vehicle without making changes along the way.


Compounded might be a little strong phrase, but yes, it will be worse. Probably the bigger effect caused by reduction in signal will be it will have to run on the idle system to higher rpms.

In the later emissions era you can find examples of carburetors with additional features for altitude compensation. And even those, when sold/serviced for high altitude had slightly different calibrations. The ones I'm thinking of are 2bbl Motorcrafts. Would have to look and see if it was neccessary on the 4 bbl versions of the same, or on any of the very late production OEM Q-jets and Holleys 4 bbls. Might not have been.


Thanks for the clarification. I did not go into great detail, and my explanation was far from perfect, but the core concepts are correct. The primary point I was making in that initial response was, adding carb size to allow more air flow will not effectively compensate for lack of oxygen at higher altitude.
 
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Repetition of wrong concepts not only continues the mistake, it compounds it. Just like power valve timing. I come back to that because it is so horrible that it makes carbs do wrong things,
Yes, power valve timing "general knowledge" is wrong. I put a 10.5 PV in my 750 DP which is not what Holley would recommend. 70 jets front, 80 back.
 
My KTM 300 dirtbike is jetted spot on .
I can start a ride at 2500 ft and climb to 10,000 ft with no discernible difference in power.
 
They are essentially self adjusting.
I'm coming to appreciate this more and more.
Until a few years ago I would change the main jets for winter in my Barracuda.
Funny. Never needed to do that in any other carbureted vehicle I owned. I thought I was being more precise than the factories. Truth is, they knew better.
Shinker once posted that the choke towers help in proper compensation for changes in air because it helps keep the shelf the air bleeds are protected. Never got a chance to ask him to elaborate on that. :( Did he mean that as it sounds, or just as part of the reason sometimes jetting on race carbs needs to be adjusted for air.

Humidity also plays a role that I still haven't nailed down completely living in FL. Water molecules displace the amount of O2 in the air that a carb can suck in.
That and the high moisture in the air must change the combustion processes etc. Its many a time when an engine often seems so happy just when the public roads are slick. Always requires an extra degree of self discipline!
 
I'm not sure water vapor in the air would displace enough or any O2 to make a difference.

Think sugar water. 1 cup of water and a few table spoons of sugar are still 1 cup. Due to the properties of solutions, When sugar dissolves in water, the sugar molecules take up space between the water molecules
 
My KTM 300 dirtbike is jetted spot on .
I can start a ride at 2500 ft and climb to 10,000 ft with no discernible difference in power.

Interesting, I've noticed driving to higher altitudes my wideband AFR readout definitely goes richer on my Duster. However perhaps proving your point, the difference is noticeable but not enough for me to need to change the jetting/metering rods (Street Demon carb). I wonder if an EFI system sees a more drastic change that it needs to compensate for?
 
Your example of Pikes Peak is an eye opener. Just another example of guys at the track changing jets like a mad man, when they should go through the carb, circuit by circuit and once they all work together, most likely you'll never touch a jet.
I agree. I bracket raced and found it MUCH easier to change my dial in than the jets.
 
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