Pushrod oiling/heat?

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Hallzy

Hallzy

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Popped valve covers off for a peek after dyno I watched prior to running as everything was primed saw oil coming thru to all pushrods. Looks to me like some discoloration from heat not blue and burnt but definitely colored. Is this normal or cause for concern in your opinions. Thanks in advance

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That is BAD and failure is right around the corner. The fix is a PITA, but I’ve seen it too many times to miss it. The oil holes in the rocker shafts do not line up with the holes in the rockers when the valves are on the seat. And they must be lined up when the valves are on the seat. So you need to mock everything up with bluing on the shafts, and using a thin scribe go through the hole in the rocker and scribe the spot on the shaft where the hole should be. Then you have to disassemble everything and drill the holes where they should be.
 
Rat Bastid said:
That is BAD and failure is right around the corner. The fix is a PITA, but I’ve seen it too many times to miss it. The oil holes in the rocker shafts do not line up with the holes in the rockers when the valves are on the seat. And they must be lined up when the valves are on the seat. So you need to mock everything up with bluing on the shafts, and using a thin scribe go through the hole in the rocker and scribe the spot on the shaft where the hole should be. Then you have to disassemble everything and drill the holes where they should be.
Click to expand...
That does sound like a pain in the *** but it's better than the alternative
 
And on a closer look your pushrods are a bit too short. There is a measurement for how much of the adjuster should be hanging out of the rocker. I think that is pretty critical.
 
That’s not good.

Do you just have the stock rocker oiling?
No restrictions anywhere?

Here’s a test......
run the priming tool, slowly rotate the motor until the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the cam bearing...... so you’re at the point of maximum oil flow to the top end on one side.
See how far away the oil feed hole is from the pushrod cup?
While priming, does the oil make it from the oil hole to the pushrod?
Based on your pics I’d say no..... or if it does, not enough of it does.

Obviously verify all the oil holes in the rockers/shafts are aligned and oriented correctly.
But if you find they are correct, my suggestion would be to add pushrod oiling to your set up.
Which, depending on what some of your other components are, might just require new pushrods with holes in them.

If you go this route, you’ll want to use pushrods with restricted oiling.
A feed hole of .025-.030 would be plenty.

Edit...... just remembered this is a solid roller combo?
Not too many of the BBM solid roller lifters have a provision for pushrod oiling.

If you’re running spacers between the shafts and heads, check for excess leakage in that area.
If you’re running studs in the hold downs, make sure the ID of the holes where the oil supply enters the shaft aren’t restricting the oil flow(usually more of an issue with studs as opposed to bolts).
 
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PRH said:
That’s not good.

Do you just have the stock rocker oiling?
No restrictions anywhere?

Here’s a test......
run the priming tool, slowly rotate the motor until the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the cam bearing...... so you’re at the point of maximum oil flow to the top end on one side.
See how far away the oil feed hole is from the pushrod cup?
While priming, does the oil make it from the oil hole to the pushrod?
Based on your pics I’d say no..... or if it does, not enough of it does.

Obviously verify all the oil holes in the rockers/shafts are aligned and oriented correctly.
But if you find they are correct, my suggestion would be to add pushrod oiling to your set up.
Which, depending on what some of your other components are, might just require new pushrods with holes in them.

If you go this route, you’ll want to use pushrods with restricted oiling.
A feed hole of .025-.030 would be plenty.

Edit...... just remembered this is a solid roller combo?
Not too many of the BBM solid roller lifters have a provision for pushrod oiling.

If you’re running spacers between the shafts and heads, check for excess leakage in that area.
If you’re running studs in the hold downs, make sure the ID of the holes where the oil supply enters the shaft aren’t restricting the oil flow(usually more of an issue with studs as opposed to bolts).
Click to expand...
Yes its a solid roller
 
PRH said:
That’s not good.

Do you just have the stock rocker oiling?
No restrictions anywhere?

Here’s a test......
run the priming tool, slowly rotate the motor until the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the cam bearing...... so you’re at the point of maximum oil flow to the top end on one side.
See how far away the oil feed hole is from the pushrod cup?
While priming, does the oil make it from the oil hole to the pushrod?
Based on your pics I’d say no..... or if it does, not enough of it does.

Obviously verify all the oil holes in the rockers/shafts are aligned and oriented correctly.
But if you find they are correct, my suggestion would be to add pushrod oiling to your set up.
Which, depending on what some of your other components are, might just require new pushrods with holes in them.

If you go this route, you’ll want to use pushrods with restricted oiling.
A feed hole of .025-.030 would be plenty.

Edit...... just remembered this is a solid roller combo?
Not too many of the BBM solid roller lifters have a provision for pushrod oiling.

If you’re running spacers between the shafts and heads, check for excess leakage in that area.
If you’re running studs in the hold downs, make sure the ID of the holes where the oil supply enters the shaft aren’t restricting the oil flow(usually more of an issue with studs as opposed to bolts).
Click to expand...
 
Yes there are .030 shims between the shafts and pedestals as well to help with the geometry perhaps they could be part of the problem. I'm pretty green knowing where I should be seeing oil come from and how much. There was oil to the holes in the rockers exiting to the push rods but there was a fair bit coming out the shaft and ends as well.
 
I believe those rockers have feed holes to the roller wheels as well as the pushrods?

And there’s a groove in the center of the rocker body?
Does the oil feed hole to the rollers intersect that groove?

It’s a path of least resistance situation.
Imo, the pushrod oiling is the top priority, so the feed hole for that should intersect the groove, but the feed hole to the roller should not.
For example, the “real” HS rockers don’t have any feed holes other than to the pushrods.
The “valve side” of the rocker arm is oiled through splash and oil mist.

As for other leaks.......
Ideally no oil would be coming from anywhere except the pushrod feed holes, and then barely a trickle to the rollers(if that side of the rocker even had a feed hole).
Any oil leaking around the area between the stands and the shafts is oil that would be better off going somewhere else.

Those parts are all just metal to metal contact, so there’s often some leakage..... but excessive leakage can be a problem.

And it goes without saying...... the higher the spring load, the more oil the pushrods need.
So, what you have there might be fine for a 484 cam with a single spring, but isn’t cutting it for a .600+ lift with 500lbs+ open load.
 
On some builds from years ago using roller cams and Crane Golds.......
Those rockers had neither feed hole intersecting the groove, and on several occasions it resulted in a situation that looked like what you’re experiencing.

I was able to get it to work by grinding a very small channel that connected the feed hole to the groove.
Nothing big....... just enough to connect the pushrod feed hole to the groove.

This is a Crane Gold intake rocker with the .290 offset:

BF4B806E-57A2-4696-AA5C-62C1E02BA29C.png


As delivered, the oil has to squeeze between the body and the shaft to oil the pushrod, and sometimes that’s not enough oil to keep from burning up parts.
 
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PRH said:
I believe those rockers have feed holes to the roller wheels as well as the pushrods?

And there’s a groove in the center of the rocker body?
Does the oil feed hole to the rollers intersect that groove?

It’s a path of least resistance situation.
Imo, the pushrod oiling is the top priority, so the feed hole for that should intersect the groove, but the feed hole to the roller should not.
For example, the “real” HS rockers don’t have any feed holes other than to the pushrods.
The “valve side” of the rocker arm is oiled through splash and oil mist.

As for other leaks.......
Ideally no oil would be coming from anywhere except the pushrod feed holes, and then barely a trickle to the rollers(if that side of the rocker even had a feed hole).
Any oil leaking around the area between the stands and the shafts is oil that would be better off going somewhere else.

Those parts are all just metal to metal contact, so there’s often some leakage..... but excessive leakage can be a problem.

And it goes without saying...... the higher the spring load, the more oil the pushrods need.
So, what you have there might be fine for a 484 cam with a single spring, but isn’t cutting it for a .600+ lift with 500lbs+ open load.
Click to expand...
So in short I should have bought the real HS rockers instead of the Mancini knock offs I guess
 
I'm getting a lot of oil here as I prime there is some to the pushrods as well but I'm probably losing too much here

16326907389825153516359904715148.jpg
 
As a test, remove the shims and reprime....... see how it is.
You’ll have to back the adjusters off a bit.

That seems like pretty excessive leakage to me.
 
The rockers for Mopars with the best oiling to the pushrods are the Comp Ultra Pro Magnums, T&D, PRW steel(which are a copy of the Comp).

Those have the oil feed hole to the pushrod within the groove, and the oil is fed to the pushrod via a thru-hole in the adjuster screw itself.
Direct feed..... not splash.

But....... if there is excessive leakage around where the shafts mount...... you could still have problems.

The down side of the rockers with needle bearings in them is there is a lot of leakage thru the bearings themselves.
 
PRH said:
The rockers for Mopars with the best oiling to the pushrods are the Comp Ultra Pro Magnums, T&D, PRW steel(which are a copy of the Comp).

Those have the oil feed hole to the pushrod within the groove, and the oil is fed to the pushrod via a thru-hole in the adjuster screw itself.
Direct feed..... not splash.

But....... if there is excessive leakage around where the shafts mount...... you could still have problems.
Click to expand...
Story of my life I had a set of the PRWs and I sold them because the geometry was so bad.
 
Hallzy said:
I'm getting a lot of oil here as I prime there is some to the pushrods as well but I'm probably losing too much here

View attachment 1715796600
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PRH said:
That seems like pretty excessive leakage to me.
Click to expand...

I'd call that a bingo! That is a LOT of oil running out at the pedestals instead of pressurizing the shaft, especially only at priming speed.
If your geometry is bad enough to need those shims then call B3RE yadda yadda...those regular shims usually do more harm than good. FWIW I've run those red Manicini rockers and they oiled the pushrod cups fine...
Good job catching it before something failed!
 
beanhead said:
I'd call that a bingo! That is a LOT of oil running out at the pedestals instead of pressurizing the shaft, especially only at priming speed.
If your geometry is bad enough to need those shims then call B3RE yadda yadda...those regular shims usually do more harm than good. FWIW I've run those red Manicini rockers and they oiled the pushrod cups fine...
Good job catching it before something failed!
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm glad I decided to pop the covers off today!!!
 
Rat Bastid said:
And on a closer look your pushrods are a bit too short. There is a measurement for how much of the adjuster should be hanging out of the rocker. I think that is pretty critical.
Click to expand...
I've found this before too. Mine were blue!
It looks like he has a Harland sharp adjustures. They say min 2 above adjuster and about 2 thread below..which with those thick aluminum body rockers doesnt leave any room for error in length..theres only 2 threads on each end below the rocker and above the adjuster. His oiling issue at the cup is the issue that can bite him atm.
 
I called Mancini about them they are junk and don't work, My buddy broke the pedestal in half tightening down the shaft (aluminum head) because oil would run out under the shaft so he thought it was loose and cranked it down till it pushed out the sides of the pedestal. So I made him some on the mill using a 7/8 ball mill and a 7/8 tube cut in half.

IMG_0643.JPG
 
PRH said:
As a test, remove the shims and reprime....... see how it is.
You’ll have to back the adjusters off a bit.

That seems like pretty excessive leakage to me.
Click to expand...
Yup once the shims were out no more leakage at the ends and lots more oil to the pushrod cups what a difference!
 
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