15.0 mpg to 21.6 mpg!

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7milesout

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Hello guys! Maybe some of you guys have read my 750 CFM vs 600 CFM thread. I replaced the 750 CFM Edelbrock 1407 with a 600 CFM Edelbrock 1405. I rejetted the 1405 to the 1406 settings before I even installed it on the Scamp. And with the AEM Wideband, I have tuned it from there. I've got it now the best I've had it yet.

I took it to my 33 mile round trip "mpg test route." It starts out at a gas station in a rural area and drives 16.5 miles further out into the country. I hold it as close to 50 mph as I can hold it. It is very consistent. I drive back to the fuel station and refuel.

On the 750 CFM, the best I managed was 15.0 mpg before I gave up on trying to tune it further. After learning that the difference between the 750 CFM and the 600 CFM was on the primary side only, I decided to go for the 600 CFM. The secondaries are the same. But the venturis and bore of the primaries are a quarter inch smaller on the primaries of the 600 CFM.

Based on the fact that the 600 CFM has more than enough capacity for my LA 360, what motivated me was that I would be able to flow the same volume of air through the primary side, but that same velocity would have to move faster through the smaller area. That increased air velocity (in my mind) should yield better atomization.

And that seems to be the case. The smaller primary side, and tuning, I've got it to 21.6 mpg! And, the car is quicker than it has ever been. It starts up quite easy now (compared to crank up on the 750 CFM).

However, I still have room for improvement. It is too lean on acceleration, and too rich (still) while cruising. I'm running about 15.7 AFR accelerating, and 14.7 AFR cruising.

Over the weekend I purchased 2 more sets of metering rods. I'm going to send both of these off to a machine shop. I'm tuning for 11% more fuel during acceleration, and 5.5% less fuel during cruising. And I'm going to change the step location. I'm going to move the step higher on the rod so the acceleration richening comes on sooner. I'm hoping this will eliminate the 1.5 second lean spike. (1.5 seconds after pulling away from a dead stop). I'm having 2 pairs of metering rods machined (differently) to try in 2 different sizes of main jets.

My current setting only runs about 12.7 AFR at WOT, and I want to bring it to 12.2. But WOT is the last thing I will tune, as it going to get affected by the small end of the metering rod. Since I'm about to richen up my acceleration with the custom metering rods, that will richen my WOT somewhat.

And lastly - I've leaned out my idle from ~13.0 AFR to ~13.5 AFR, thinking it was more conservative / better. But it does not like it. It does sound mean idling and mildly loping, but via the AFR gauge, the loping is actually misfiring. At 13.0 or maybe even a skosh richer, it misfires much less. Idle AFR is simple to set also. So, in the future I'm going to adjust it to where it misfires the least.

Anywho, sorry for the long post, but the tuning of this car has been FUN!
 
12.6 to 13.1 AFR at wot.
14:6 AFR at idle.
Been in the Dyno business 37 years for one of the Big 3.
I know the subject matter very well.
But hey it's your motor do what you want.
 
I hate to be a doubting Thomas, but I would put more faith in your MPG figures if you had used at least a full tank of gas (200 -300 mile trip) during both runs on a highway at a steady speed. On the other hand, I hope you are right. I just returned from a 4,600 mile road trip in my '72 318 two-barrel automatic BBody with 2.71 rear end and averaged 16-18 MPG. So 21.6 MPG in a 360 I think is phenomenal.
 
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I don't think my engine would idle AT ALL at 14.7 AFR. And when I ignore that AFR gauge and set idle based on the Edelbrock manual, I wind up in the 13.0 range anyway.

WOT
12.8:1 - Lean best torque
12.2:1 - Mean best torque
11.76:1 - Rich best torque
11.01:1 - Fastest flame speed in cylinder

Right out of the Edelbrock carb manual below. The table below compared with the numbers above is what I'm shooting for.

upload_2017-9-25_10-29-46.png
 
Going to bow out of this topic. Guess the Big 3 have been doing it wrong for the last 100 yrs. And my 37 yrs in engine calibration means nothing. Good luck on your quest. Try not to burn a piston or wash the oil off the rings.
 
I hate to be a doubting Thomas, but I would put more faith in your MPG figures if you had used at least a full tank of gas (200 -300 mile trip) during both runs on a highway at a steady speed. On the other hand, I hope your right. I just returned from a 4,600 mile road trip in my '72 318 two-barrel automatic BBody with 2.71 rear end and averaged 16-18 MPG. So 21.6 MPG in a 360 I think is phenomenal.

dibbons - My 21.6 mpg is not what I would consider real world. It is best case scenario. I do it because it gives me an apples to apples comparison. If I were to drive a 250 mile trip, there's no way it could simulate that another 250 mile trip as identically as I can my little 33 mile path. Unless I had access to a test track.

My Scamp has a 3.55 gear, and a 3 speed 727. At my 50 mph cruise, it's turning 2,500 rpm. So, I consider my test as a maximum mpg test run only. Not realistic for real world street driving. And, I don't like turning 3,000+ rpm on the interstate ... my mpg would stink at that rpm anyway.
 
Going to bow out of this topic. Guess the Big 3 have been doing it wrong for the last 100 yrs. And my 37 yrs in engine calibration means nothing. Good luck on your quest. Try not to burn a piston or wash the oil off the rings.
Seems you're taking this personally, I don't know why. I've not said you're wrong. I spent 12 years working for OEM's. Not in engine design however. Edelbrock has been making carbs a few years, so I trust their numbers and their tables. I've been tuning for a few weeks. But in that time I can say, no way in heck my engine will idle, at least not well, trying to achieve 14.7. It would have so mean lean spikes (misfires), it would be horrible and would barely read 14.7 because it would continually jump above that due to misfires.

I can make a video and compare the 2 idles. And attach the video here. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. All I know is, my idle is decent at 13.0, and starts breaking up linearly as I increase that AFR.
 
My 318 is turning about 2,500 RPM at 70 MPH and that is where I got my best mileage.

Lucky devil. Maybe in the future I may put a 4 speed in my Scamp. But for now, I'm a rolling roadblock on the interstate. :D
 
got to admit, kind of surprised at that mileage. Heck, I'll be happy with 16 out of my 440 when its done.
 
I don't think my engine would idle AT ALL at 14.7 AFR. And when I ignore that AFR gauge and set idle based on the Edelbrock manual, I wind up in the 13.0 range anyway.

WOT
12.8:1 - Lean best torque
12.2:1 - Mean best torque
11.76:1 - Rich best torque
11.01:1 - Fastest flame speed in cylinder

Right out of the Edelbrock carb manual below. The table below compared with the numbers above is what I'm shooting for.

View attachment 1715094711

I found that their tables are ok for generalization, but not all motors run the same, or want exactly the same.
My own motor runs around 14.5 at idle with a light lean lope, 13.5 mid throttle cruise and 11.5-12 at WOT.
I'm going to go a little leaner on the WOT eventually, but I spend so little time there I'm not in any hurry to do it.

It's not a race car and spends most of it's time around 1,500-2,500 RPM's
Normal driving around my shifts are in the 2-2.5k range.
On the hiway at 80mph I get a little over 25mpg running at 2,100 RPM's but that is because of the 42RHOD and 2.73 rear gears.
Also running a 600, but the electric choke version on a mild built 5.9 Magnum.
When I had the 318 and 3 speed 904 I got right at 17 at 80mph.
 
I found that their tables are ok for generalization, but not all motors run the same, or want exactly the same.
I certainly agree. And I'm shooting for their numbers ... in general. I will never hit them exactly.
 
Keep in mind that stoichiometric ratio varies depending how much EtOH is in your fuel. 14.7 is for pure gasoline. E10 is around 14.1.
 
I have a few "no ethanol" 90 octane places around me. I'm hitting only those.
 
Your wideband is only an average of four cylinders thru each exhaust pipe. Before you go any leaner you should pull plugs and read them. You always should tune to the leanest cylinder and fatten it up, very important especially at WOT. A dual plane intake will almost always need stagger jetting to get a carb dialed in.
 
Your wideband is only an average of four cylinders thru each exhaust pipe. Before you go any leaner you should pull plugs and read them. You always should tune to the leanest cylinder and fatten it up, very important especially at WOT. A dual plane intake will almost always need stagger jetting to get a carb dialed in.
That's a good point. When I had the exhaust installed (TTi headers), I had a bung welded in on both sides. So, once I have it tuned to where I like it, I swap sides and check it there also. Have swapped a few times now.

But I haven't considered confirming the WOT on both sides. Thanks for the reminder. The best WOT power via the buttometer seemed to be where it would start off (at WOT) at about 12.7 or so and as it pulled it creeped to about 12.2. I swear, as it approached 12.2 I could feel it pulling harder, and sounding better.

The primary side POWER Mode and CRUISE Mode is a difficult balancing act. To make the POWER AFR safe, I will need to go to a bigger main jet because there is no smaller (diameter) metering rod than 0.037". But when I go to a bigger main jet, the CRUISE Mode gets way richer because there is no larger (diameter) metering rod than 0.077". Which is why I want to have one custom made.

I'm seriously considering buying rod stock and having a pair turned to 0.079" / 0.030" and running that in a .100" main jet. Based on my calculations, that would put me right where I need to be.
 
Put some solder on the the .077 rods and sand it down to .079 and see if it gets you dialed in.
 
What's your ignition setup?
No expert here. Break that down for me. :D I only know as much as I've figured out. It's probably the stock ignition system.

Initial timing ~11°, plus mechanical ~37°.
 
Put some solder on the the .077 rods and sand it down to .079 and see if it gets you dialed in.
If I could sand it down accurately maybe I would give it a shot. I'll ask the shop I use if they have a suggestion on how to increase the O.D. then turn it to 0.079.
 
No expert here. Break that down for me. :D I only know as much as I've figured out. It's probably the stock ignition system.

Initial timing ~11°, plus mechanical ~37°.

I'm not an ignition pro but I know that if you're not running vacuum advance you're giving up a lot.

I think Mopar Action said total with vacuum would be like 50+?
 
Your calling a one time mileage measurement "real world" is like calling Jenna Jameson a virgin schoolgirl.

You cannot measure fuel mileage on e one time run. Fuel mileage is measured using the average of several trips, not just one. You must average out several trips, as there are always variances from trip to trip. Also, use the full tank method as described. Find the mileage of each individual trip, then average them all together for the total average MPG. The more trips you average together for a final average MPG, the more accurate your figure will be.
 
I'm not an ignition pro but I know that if you're not running vacuum advance you're giving up a lot.

I think Mopar Action said total with vacuum would be like 50+?

Yes and not uncommon to get into the 60s, vacuum advance included. Not uncommon at all. And I agree. No vacuum advance is giving up some mileage and a tad bit of part throttle acceleration.
 
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