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inkjunkie

inkjunkie

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Purely hypothetical here...perhaps...Apologies for the length...
Let's say someone were to build a turbo car. Will see very limited, if any street duty. Car will have a Holley Dominator EFI controlling the motor. ECU would also be controlling the boost control.
Right now the car has SS springs. Mini tubbed...relocated springs.
I have been doing a bit of searching and found a few options. One is the Street-Lynx 67-76 A-body
Not a big fan of Bill. In my limited knowledge of 4 links while the triangulate system works well it has its limitations. If memory serves me right RMS suggests no quicker than 10.99 quarter mile times with it. At a couple grand it is a bit pricey. Does look like there is plenty of adjustability in it. Looks like links have bushings. Shocks in front of axle...
Then there is Gerst. GTS Rear Suspension | Gerst Tubular Suspensions
It is a parallel design with a watts bar. Eliminates the bit of side to side movement that triangipulated systems have, or so I have read. Looks like plenty of adjustability is built into it. Looks like links are equipped with bushings. It is also a couple grand +. Shocks in front of axle...
Martz...A Body Rear 4-Link Mini Tub Kit
$1400 or so. Bushings on links as well. Panhard bar. Looks like upper/lower links are adjustable. Shocks behind axle.
Chris Alston offers a universal kit...http://www.cachassisworks.com/p-1550-drag-race-sportsman-4-link-rear-suspension-3x2-crossmember.aspx
A grand. Links are adjustable. Have rod ends. "Locator bar". Shocks behind axle.
Guessing that with shocks behind the axle the factory fuel tank has to go? What about the spare tire well? Is there any advantages/disadvantages to shocks in front of the axle versus shocks behind?
Rod ends or bushings? Again, with my limited knowledge, I would think rod ends are more desirable for the simple fact of they will deflect less on the hit?
The Locator bar in the Alston kit, will it work? For some reason I can't blow the pictures up so I can't really see how it's attached. Wondering about the quality of the shocks in the Alston kit.
One thing I would like to do is push the axle back in the wheel well. The few a-bodies I have seen with "as much slick will fit" the tire is very close to the front lip. Will pushing the axle back a bit cause any problems? Guessing that the a-body specific kits pushing the axle back a bit may be a problem?
So....fine folks of FABO...please educate me..
Thanks in advance for your input...
 
Don't know all the geometry/shock location advantage answers, but everything can fit if you make a couple mods to the spare tire well. Moving the axle back wont do anything negative as far as I have experienced.

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If you are going to the trouble of a 4 link, I'd use a Chassisworks deal. My last race car had an Art Morrison 4 link. Yes I'm old.

I looked at the links you posted. I don't like the GM styled thing in the first link.

With out spending some time, I'm not sure how the second link setup works.

The third one has no adjustability. You'd be better off with Asassinbars and leafs than that.

Try and not move the rear axle back, unless you are over 49.5% rear axle weight and you need to keep some weight forward. You'd be surprised how much weight an inch of axle movement will make.
 
inkjunkie said:
Purely hypothetical here...perhaps...Apologies for the length...
Let's say someone were to build a turbo car. Will see very limited, if any street duty. Car will have a Holley Dominator EFI controlling the motor. ECU would also be controlling the boost control.
Right now the car has SS springs. Mini tubbed...relocated springs.
I have been doing a bit of searching and found a few options. One is the Street-Lynx 67-76 A-body
Not a big fan of Bill. In my limited knowledge of 4 links while the triangulate system works well it has its limitations. If memory serves me right RMS suggests no quicker than 10.99 quarter mile times with it. At a couple grand it is a bit pricey. Does look like there is plenty of adjustability in it. Looks like links have bushings. Shocks in front of axle...
Then there is Gerst. GTS Rear Suspension | Gerst Tubular Suspensions
It is a parallel design with a watts bar. Eliminates the bit of side to side movement that triangipulated systems have, or so I have read. Looks like plenty of adjustability is built into it. Looks like links are equipped with bushings. It is also a couple grand +. Shocks in front of axle...
Martz...A Body Rear 4-Link Mini Tub Kit
$1400 or so. Bushings on links as well. Panhard bar. Looks like upper/lower links are adjustable. Shocks behind axle.
Chris Alston offers a universal kit...http://www.cachassisworks.com/p-1550-drag-race-sportsman-4-link-rear-suspension-3x2-crossmember.aspx
A grand. Links are adjustable. Have rod ends. "Locator bar". Shocks behind axle.
Guessing that with shocks behind the axle the factory fuel tank has to go? What about the spare tire well? Is there any advantages/disadvantages to shocks in front of the axle versus shocks behind?
Rod ends or bushings? Again, with my limited knowledge, I would think rod ends are more desirable for the simple fact of they will deflect less on the hit?
The Locator bar in the Alston kit, will it work? For some reason I can't blow the pictures up so I can't really see how it's attached. Wondering about the quality of the shocks in the Alston kit.
One thing I would like to do is push the axle back in the wheel well. The few a-bodies I have seen with "as much slick will fit" the tire is very close to the front lip. Will pushing the axle back a bit cause any problems? Guessing that the a-body specific kits pushing the axle back a bit may be a problem?
So....fine folks of FABO...please educate me..
Thanks in advance for your input...
Click to expand...
Ok, I have the Gerst Watts link. I'm gonna correct a couple things.

First, the coil over shocks on the Gerst watts link kit are behind the axle, not infront. They are in front on his Triangulated one I believe. the picture on his website only shows the triagulated 4 link. Also, I know there's at least 1 Cuda in the low 10s with the Gerst Tri kit with no issues and its been at the track most weekends. As for the advantages of the watts over the triangulated, there's actually several. I did a write up on this a while back, I'll see if I can find the thread.

For me, I couldnt find a better bang for the buck than the Watts kit. Highly recommend it.
 
inkjunkie said:
Purely hypothetical here...perhaps...Apologies for the length...
Let's say someone were to build a turbo car. Will see very limited, if any street duty. Car will have a Holley Dominator EFI controlling the motor. ECU would also be controlling the boost control.
Right now the car has SS springs. Mini tubbed...relocated springs.
I have been doing a bit of searching and found a few options. One is the Street-Lynx 67-76 A-body
Not a big fan of Bill. In my limited knowledge of 4 links while the triangulate system works well it has its limitations. If memory serves me right RMS suggests no quicker than 10.99 quarter mile times with it. At a couple grand it is a bit pricey. Does look like there is plenty of adjustability in it. Looks like links have bushings. Shocks in front of axle...
Then there is Gerst. GTS Rear Suspension | Gerst Tubular Suspensions
It is a parallel design with a watts bar. Eliminates the bit of side to side movement that triangipulated systems have, or so I have read. Looks like plenty of adjustability is built into it. Looks like links are equipped with bushings. It is also a couple grand +. Shocks in front of axle...
Martz...A Body Rear 4-Link Mini Tub Kit
$1400 or so. Bushings on links as well. Panhard bar. Looks like upper/lower links are adjustable. Shocks behind axle.
Chris Alston offers a universal kit...http://www.cachassisworks.com/p-1550-drag-race-sportsman-4-link-rear-suspension-3x2-crossmember.aspx
A grand. Links are adjustable. Have rod ends. "Locator bar". Shocks behind axle.
Guessing that with shocks behind the axle the factory fuel tank has to go? What about the spare tire well? Is there any advantages/disadvantages to shocks in front of the axle versus shocks behind?
Rod ends or bushings? Again, with my limited knowledge, I would think rod ends are more desirable for the simple fact of they will deflect less on the hit?
The Locator bar in the Alston kit, will it work? For some reason I can't blow the pictures up so I can't really see how it's attached. Wondering about the quality of the shocks in the Alston kit.
One thing I would like to do is push the axle back in the wheel well. The few a-bodies I have seen with "as much slick will fit" the tire is very close to the front lip. Will pushing the axle back a bit cause any problems? Guessing that the a-body specific kits pushing the axle back a bit may be a problem?
So....fine folks of FABO...please educate me..
Thanks in advance for your input...
Click to expand...



"A few people have been asking me about my rear suspension, i should have the thing installed in the coming weeks as i get free time from 2 kids under the age of 3, so pics will be uploaded as I go. In the short term, I thought i'd discuss why I chose the kit I'm going to use. I'll also try to answer any questions you may have. Keep in mind, I dont claim to be nor am I a suspension expert. I have a working and practical knowledge is all.

Now before I get into why I chose or decided against one kit or another, this is just my opinion, what works for me may not suit your needs or vise versa. This post is not design, meant or implied to sell or not sell a kit. I am merely stating my reasons upfront for my choice, I am not putting down any other kit or maker. I am listing the retail prices by each as well. But mainly because cost does play into every decision. What I will do, is attempt to thoroughly explain my choice, I will answer any questions to the best of my knowledge, however what I will not do, I repeat, what I'm not going to do is to debate one maker over the other, as what happened the last time I posted my front kit. If you wanna turn something into a mud slinging contest, go join Hillary's or Donald's campaign team. Also, I promise to have typos, it happens, especially with autocorrect haha. If you are good with that, continue reading, if not, dont bother reading on.

First I listed some requirements:

Had to be adjustable and suitable for road racing, drag racing, street
Had to be easily tunable with multiple tuning features
Be cost efficent, bang for buck
Use at minimum dual adjusting shocks
Allow for the maximum width tires possible without backing halving
Ajustable ride height
Allow for corner balancing the car
Allow me to keep my rear seat

So lets look at my options:
Mopar SS springs, sway bar and Dual adjusting shocks.
RMS Street Lynx
QA1 6 Link
Magnum Force Pro Link
Control Freak 4 Link (parallel with pan hard)
Custom

Option 1: Mopar SS Springs, rear sway kit and dual adjusting shocks(vikings, qa1?)

Pros:
Tried and true long time upgrade for Mopars
Cheapest option
Easiest to install

Cons:
No adjustability other than the shocks
Only 2 spring rate options
Requires a spring relocation kit to fit wider tires
No ride height adjustment
Cannot corner balance

Cost: 920 with shocks, sway and springs( not counting relocation kit)

Decision: No go, must have more adjustment

Option 2: RMS Street Lynx

Pros:
Popular upgrade.
Some tuning features
Dual adjusting Coil Overs

Cons:
Trianugluated 4 Link means limited adjustability.
No Sway Bar
Requires spring relocation kit to get wider tires

Cost: 1995
Decison: No Go, while it has some adjustability, very limited with a triangulated 4 link.

Option 3: QA1 6 link

Pros:
Adjustable Coil overs(3 options)
Bolt in
Adjustable rid height(1 in +/-)
Sway bar

Cons:
Bind central, just dont see how this works to improve handling let alone without binding
Expensive, most expensive of any kits
Heaviest option, the added parts to make this a 6 link add weight.
No need for 2 rear ward links
Keeps the roll center in the high, non adjustable position
Uses stock locations to bolt in, not compatible with inboard relaction kits meaning wider tires arent possible.

Cost: 2995.00(Single adjustable coilovers); 3195 (dual adjusting); 3895 (4 way adjustable)

Decision: No go, too expensive and just offers no real advantages in performance or tuning over a 4 link.

Option 4: Magnum Force Pro-Link

Pros:
Adjustable in alot of areas but roll center and ride height are not
Choice of panhard bar or watts link.
Mounts inboard of frame to allow much wilder tires

Cons:
Location of watts link puts the roll center high above the rear axle, chosing the panhard would help this but panhard isnt adjustable
Roll center is high and non adjustable.
Doesnt come powder coated but they will for an extra 500 bucks
2nd most expensive kit
Magnum force's reputation
No Sway bar option

Cost: 2574 bare with dual adjusting coil over shocks, 3069 powdercoated with same coil overs

Decision: No Go, high roll center would actually work against my front suspension, creating an unpredictable roll in high speed corners


Option 5: Control Freak Rear suspension Parallel 4 Link with Panhard bar

Pros:
Adjustable with pan hard(though limited on the panhard)
Dual Adjustable coil overs standard.
Parallel 4 link allows for road racing, drag racing and street driving.
Adjustable ride height
Sway bar option(329+)
Allows wider tires
Complete, powder coated ready to go kit

Cons:
Very hard to think of any here, so I had to split hairs.
While the panhard bar is adjustable, I'd prefer slots to get a finer tune on the panhard bar but I'm splitting hairs so i wont count this in my decision.
The pan hard bar allows the rear to move slightly along a curve bias, therefore, while wider tires are allowed, still need to run some clearance to ensure they dont rub the frame or quarters.

Cost: 1899 without sway bar, 2228 with sway bar

Decision: Go, adding to the consider list. With only one negative I can find with it, definity fits the bill for what I need.

For option 6, Originally I started out to design and build my own. While I can fab and weld and have the tools to do so, my skills aren't up to the level I trust enough with my life or the lives of those with me. Since I lack fabrication skills to this level, I decided to give Carl Gerst a call, give him my requirements and see if he could come up with something that would work. When I called, I spoke with him for over an hour, came to learn that he had already been working on a rear system for the past several months and that it was almost ready to go public with it after a few more tests. As he rattled off the features he was building into it, I was stunned. I just didnt think it'd be possible to fit all that into an A body.

Option 6: GTS Dominator Series 4 link with Watts link

Pros:

Adjustable links, links feature different height and angle options allowing a user to fine tune the links to the driver and track
Adjustable ride height
High travel, dual adjustable coil over shocks.
Links mount inboard of frame and allows for much wider tires than stock
Watts link is centered in the rear of the axle, just behind it and features 8 inches of adjustable roll center adjustment
Watts links are also tunable.
Very cost effective, cheapest of the adjustable 4 links with sway bars thus far., 3rd overall in price behind Option 1 and 2.
Sway bar included
Watts link allows the rear to move up and down straight, meaning less clearance needed for the tires, allows just that much more tire or to use spacers to help tune track width.

Cons:
Very hard to come up with any here
So much adjustment, I'll probably get myself in trouble lol

Decision: Go, add to consider list. I may be biased after having his front kit, but this rear kit knocked my socks off.

The sheer amount of adjustment is amazing. This kit will allow me to fine tune my car not only to my liking, but to the track.

Final Thoughts:

This was a tough call between the Control Freak And the GTS. Both of these kits met all my requirements and then some.

Both had very few to no cons. Price being about the same, the GTS does have the most adjustability as well but this ultimately boiled down to having a matching setup plus the uniqueness and tunability of the GTS. So I went with the GTS Dominator Series"
 
I'm not sure why you like the watts linkage so much. Most of the time, it's hard to fit in the car.

I've never seen a drag car with watts linkage.

Just my observation.
 
inkjunkie said:
Purely hypothetical here...perhaps...Apologies for the length...
Let's say someone were to build a turbo car. Will see very limited, if any street duty. Car will have a Holley Dominator EFI controlling the motor. ECU would also be controlling the boost control.
Right now the car has SS springs. Mini tubbed...relocated springs.
I have been doing a bit of searching and found a few options. One is the Street-Lynx 67-76 A-body
Not a big fan of Bill. In my limited knowledge of 4 links while the triangulate system works well it has its limitations. If memory serves me right RMS suggests no quicker than 10.99 quarter mile times with it. At a couple grand it is a bit pricey. Does look like there is plenty of adjustability in it. Looks like links have bushings. Shocks in front of axle...
Then there is Gerst. GTS Rear Suspension | Gerst Tubular Suspensions
It is a parallel design with a watts bar. Eliminates the bit of side to side movement that triangipulated systems have, or so I have read. Looks like plenty of adjustability is built into it. Looks like links are equipped with bushings. It is also a couple grand +. Shocks in front of axle...
Martz...A Body Rear 4-Link Mini Tub Kit
$1400 or so. Bushings on links as well. Panhard bar. Looks like upper/lower links are adjustable. Shocks behind axle.
Chris Alston offers a universal kit...http://www.cachassisworks.com/p-1550-drag-race-sportsman-4-link-rear-suspension-3x2-crossmember.aspx
A grand. Links are adjustable. Have rod ends. "Locator bar". Shocks behind axle.
Guessing that with shocks behind the axle the factory fuel tank has to go? What about the spare tire well? Is there any advantages/disadvantages to shocks in front of the axle versus shocks behind?
Rod ends or bushings? Again, with my limited knowledge, I would think rod ends are more desirable for the simple fact of they will deflect less on the hit?
The Locator bar in the Alston kit, will it work? For some reason I can't blow the pictures up so I can't really see how it's attached. Wondering about the quality of the shocks in the Alston kit.
One thing I would like to do is push the axle back in the wheel well. The few a-bodies I have seen with "as much slick will fit" the tire is very close to the front lip. Will pushing the axle back a bit cause any problems? Guessing that the a-body specific kits pushing the axle back a bit may be a problem?
So....fine folks of FABO...please educate me..
Thanks in advance for your input...
Click to expand...
Also, check out what Ron Sutton says as to rear suspensions:

"The typical Torque Arm suspension is similar to a 3-link, using two lower trailing arms (or "control arms") ... but instead of the third link being on top (centered or offset) & pivoting ... it mounts solidly to the housing & extends quite far forward (closer to the center of the wheelbase) with its 3rd pivot point.

Assuming each type of rear suspension is set-up correctly, rod ends spaced away from brackets properly with high misalignment bushings & clocked correctly ... the 3-link & Torque Arm suspensions allow the rear axle to articulate more (roll angle in relation to frame) than the 4-links.

They all will bind at some point of articulation. The Parallel 4-link allows the least articulation before bind ... the Triangulated 4-link allows a little more articulation before bind ... and the 3-link & Torque Arm offer quite a bit more articulation before bind ... all things being equal.

A triangulated 4-link is simple, and fairly common as a factory style rear suspension in many cars. It could be argued it will handle more torque under hard launches than 3-links, but if you were going to drag race it with slicks, you would want a Parallel 4-link, not a triangulated 4-link. You want the push & pull forces going through the links to be parallel with the chassis … not angled within the chassis.

Torque Arm suspensions are also common as a factory style rear suspension in some cars. They are the simplest of the designs, allow a high degree of rear end articulation & can take high shock loads from hard launches. They can be made "a little" adjustable, but typically offer less adjustability than the other designs, as far as controlling the front Instant Center, rise leverage & anti-squat. If designed well & installed as instructed, these make a great all around suspension for the person that doesn't want to tune much.

3-links are very common in road racing, especially in full body cars like GT1 & the Trans Am series, because they allow for the most articulation & can be highly adjustable & tunable for track conditions. You also see them a lot on top AutoX racers.

3-links, Parallel 4-links & Triangulated 4-links can be made very adjustable if designed & installed with multiple or variable mounting points. But most "street kits" are sold with little or no adjustment to protect non-tuning novices from themselves. If you know set-ups or plan to learn, you may want to pick a system designed for adjustability. If not, pick a system designed for your application, install as directed & run it.

3-links can handle drag racing up to a point, but it wouldn't be my choice if the car was planned for super high hp, high rpm, clutch dropping, slick running, wheelie pulling launches ... as there are only 2 rod ends "pulling" through the top link to lift the whole car. 4-links can handle more launch load (like drag racing), because the force going through the rear end & rear suspension that "pulls" the top links(s) is spread over 4 rod ends.

Parallel 4-links, 3-links & Torque Arm suspensions require a device to keep the rear end centered in the chassis, like a panhard bar or watts link. A triangulated 4-link does not require this, as the 2 or 4 links running at an angle keep the rear end in the location you put it. There are pros & cons both ways.

A suspension with a panhard bar or watts linkage ... "can" allow for easy roll center changes, if the mounting brackets allow for adjustment. (Many ProTouring focused kits offered do not have adjustment capabilities) Again, decide if you want to "set it & forget it" (sorry Ron Popiel) or if you want a suspension that is tunable for optimum performance & varying track conditions.

For a track car, I can’t fathom not having an adjustable rear suspension. But if your PT car doesn’t have a rear suspension, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do track days. Rock on & have fun. Just know if the rear needs to be loosened or tightened up, to balance out the car for neutral handling, you have less tuning options.

For the best adjustable rear suspension for road racing, track car, or AutoX car, is the adjustable 3-link, as it has the best articulation. The adjustable parallel 4-link will work well as long as the car doesn’t require a high degree of roll angle for the suspension to work, but it's not my weapon of choice.

For the best non-adjustable rear suspension for road racing, track car, or AutoX car, is the Torque Arm suspension, as it offers good articulation. The non-adjustable 3-link & parallel 4-link “can work well” … providing the instant center location provides a decent anti-squat percentage for your application. Triangulated 4-links are rarely adjustable, but still ranks at the bottom as the push pull forces aren’t parallel with the car (which is desired) and the roll center is not separately adjustable, as it does not use a panhard bar or Watt’s link.

For drag racing, the advantage goes to the Parallel 4-link, with the Torque Arm suspension 2nd (for handling launches BUT not very adjustable), Triangulated 4-link 3rd & the 3-link 4th (only due to strength concerns)."

Rear Suspension & Geometry for Track Performance - Lateral-g Forums post 3
 
yellow rose said:
I'm not sure why you like the watts linkage so much. Most of the time, it's hard to fit in the car.

I've never seen a drag car with watts linkage.

Just my observation.
Click to expand...

Mostly cause it takes full understanding on how to tune it. its not so much a prefer the watts link over the parallel for this particular instance as it is preferring the parallel 4 link over a triangulated four link pretty much every single time. But with a parallel, you have to have an axle centering device/locator. And when it comes to choosing a panhard or a watts, I chose the watts cause of the predictability of tuning and the fact that I can push the envelope that much wider for tires.

And it does fit in an A body quite easily.
 
This is the Gerst watts link

IMG_2056.JPG
 
yellow rose said:
I can barely see it in that picture.

If we are talking about corner turning cars, or road course stuff, I'd go with Watts linkage.

Every high powered drag car I know of uses a wishbone.
Click to expand...
Hg on, loading more
 
D-50394 said:
I


If it is street or Drag race it does not get more simpler than Calrac bars. There is leaf spring cars with Caltrac bars running 4.20's in the 1/8 on 275/60 Drag Radials.
Click to expand...
Based upon a couple of threads floating around here I would be very skeptical of them. I was hanging around a local guy that struggled with them. His car ended up in England, last I heard the only way he was consistent was leaving at idle...that being said it sounds like Caltrac working, or not, iso largely a car by car type of thing. I know that by wanting to drive the thing on the street every now and then I am creating a problem...have talked to more than one fab shop that told me driving a 4 link with rod ends on the street is risky...at best...
 
inkjunkie said:
Based upon a couple of threads floating around here I would be very skeptical of them. I was hanging around a local guy that struggled with them. His car ended up in England, last I heard the only way he was consistent was leaving at idle...that being said it sounds like Caltrac working, or not, iso largely a car by car type of thing. I know that by wanting to drive the thing on the street every now and then I am creating a problem...have talked to more than one fab shop that told me driving a 4 link with rod ends on the street is risky...at best...
Click to expand...
Ok gonna correct one more thing. The rod end thing stems from the early days when guys would go to the local farm store and get rod ends for tractors and farm equipment and use them in their links. That was back then. Now a days , there are specially designed Heims for street and strip use that are quite tough. Producers like Viking for example build high quality heims that'll take the abuse. Some even are bushed to help absorb vibrations. As someone with a ton of experience with both farm heims and heims for suspensions, trust me when I say they are apples and oranges.

RMS , Hemidenny, Gerst, I know all use them with no reported issues that I've seen with the heims. These guys have tons of kits out there with thousands of miles.
 
I've had no issues with my Heim ends (front RMS- Rear Custom) in over 6000 miles of twisty roads and tire burning launches.
On caveat is where the pan hard bar connects to the axle. You must make sure you have a good strong connection point there, as the PH bar encounters a lot of torque.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
Ok gonna correct one more thing. The rod end thing stems from the early days when guys would go to the local farm store and get rod ends for tractors and farm equipment and use them in their links. That was back then. Now a days , there are specially designed Heims for street and strip use that are quite tough. Producers like Viking for example build high quality heims that'll take the abuse. Some even are bushed to help absorb vibrations. As someone with a ton of experience with both farm heims and heims for suspensions, trust me when I say they are apples and oranges.

RMS , Hemidenny, Gerst, I know all use them with no reported issues that I've seen with the heims. These guys have tons of kits out there with thousands of miles.
Click to expand...

momoparman said:
I've had no issues with my Heim ends (front RMS- Rear Custom) in over 6000 miles of twisty roads and tire burning launches.
On caveat is where the pan hard bar connects to the axle. You must make sure you have a good strong connection point there, as the PH bar encounters a lot of torque.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input.
 
I am thinking about mini tub my dart. Thinking about using RMS kit using the 4-link kit that he offers.

IMG_0276.JPG
 
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