440 Harmonic Balancer Timing Marks Off

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440Leroy

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Hello all,
Hoping i'm overlooking something easy or just overthinking it. I have a newly built (by me & first one!) 440 RB going into a 71 Duster. The crank and balancer are still stock but I do have new pistons and Edelbrock top end kit on it. Assembling the engine I was very careful to set the timing marks correct on the timing chain per the instructions so i know that is correct. My problem is now that everything is in the car and bolted up almost ready to fire - the timing marks are off:BangHead: . I have set the engine to TDC with a piston stop a few times actually to make sure I am right and it is still showing my closest mark being on the 19-
IMG_0902.JPG
20 degree. IS this because of the aftermarket chain set / cam setup? or have I made some mistake that i'm overlooking. I have ordered timing tape for the balancer and was going to set my new 0 by that but I reallllly dont wanna mess this thing up on first fire and screw the new tappets up.
 
it's probably because you skipped one of the first steps in degreeing the cam. That is, checking TDC on the dampener. Once you confirm that the TDC mark is correct, you match mark the inner hub of the dampener and the outer ring of the dampener, so you'll know if the outer ring spins subsequently.
 
rustycowll69 said:
it's probably because you skipped one of the first steps in degreeing the cam. That is, checking TDC on the dampener. Once you confirm that the TDC mark is correct, you match mark the inner hub of the dampener and the outer ring of the dampener, so you'll know if the outer ring spins subsequently.
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Thanks for the reply back. I guess I may be confused. According to my edelbrock kit there was no need in degreeing the cam bc it was as close as possible according to the paperwork from them And if you set the chain up how you need to with the mark alinged then the cam nipple is only going to sit one way in realtionship to the sprocket which in turn angles the crankshaft/sprocket one way... are you trying to say that i would have found out if the outer ring has slipped in the past?
 
I don't know why any cam manufacturer would ever recommend not degreeing their cam. Had you degreed the cam properly, you probably wouldn't be asking why your dampener doesn't agree with the positive stop, and questioning if you timed the cam correctly. Rather than revisiting that huge discussion, I suggest first searching for recent threads on timing/degreeing cam. I know we had a big thread on this in just the last month or so.
 
when a cam is degreed in, the timing cover is off! some folks say degreeing in a cam is a must, it is not. it is a good idea when you are done installing the cam, and it is at top dead center, slide the timing cover and balancer on to check the timing marks. do you know if the timing cover and balancer are from the same year? if you are sure the #1 piston is at tdc, the timing marks are off
 
First off your cam timing will have nothing to do with the accuracy of the balancer timing marks. You place a piston stop in the number one spark plug hole and rotate the crank until it stops. Lightly mark the balance with pencil. rotate the crank the other way until it stops again. Mark with pencil. measure the distance between your 2 marks. That is Top dead center Mark it perminantly there. As mentioned at this point mark the inner hub in relation to the outer hub to see if it slips.
Part of any good build is degreeing the cam. This verifies the cam opens and closes as designed and makes sure the proper advance or retard on the cam timing is as advertised. You can also use this to adjust the cam timing if you desire with different chains or offset bushings or offset keys.

Most of the time you can get away without degreeing the cam but it is generally part of any performance build.
good luck
 
340dartley said:
First off your cam timing will have nothing to do with the accuracy of the balancer timing marks. You place a piston stop in the number one spark plug hole and rotate the crank until it stops. Lightly mark the balance with pencil. rotate the crank the other way until it stops again. Mark with pencil. measure the distance between your 2 marks. That is Top dead center Mark it perminantly there. As mentioned at this point mark the inner hub in relation to the outer hub to see if it slips.
Part of any good build is degreeing the cam. This verifies the cam opens and closes as designed and makes sure the proper advance or retard on the cam timing is as advertised. You can also use this to adjust the cam timing if you desire with different chains or offset bushings or offset keys.

Most of the time you can get away without degreeing the cam but it is generally part of any performance build.
good luck
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Appreciate the comments back. I Did but a comp cams degree kit on the intention of degreesing the cam but edelbrock says it is already designed for optimal performance and not to advance or retarded the timing unless your doing something intentional. Which for me it's just a rebuild so I went the set route. And iv made the marks with he pencil and it sure enough is the line that is setting on 20 degrees . I guess maybe I need to tear it down and rotate the crank once without the chain and it may fix it. I'm thinking I'm 180 out. Iv apparently overlooked this and I thought I was in the compression stroke when initially doing the build. That's all I can figure to do
 
Rotating the crank with out the chain will not do anything. I would just make a new mark on the balancer and reference that as new tdc. Your cam timing is keyed to the crank and cam. It won't be effected by the misaligned balancer mark
 
TDC is TDC regardless. You could put the cam in backwards or throw it in the trunk. The timing marks would line up when you're at TDC nonetheless. Your insulator may have slipped.
 
Leadfoot said:
TDC is TDC regardless. You could put the cam in backwards or throw it in the trunk. The timing marks would line up when you're at TDC nonetheless. Your insulator may have slipped.
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I agree to a point, but unless he is positive the cam is timed to TDC, COMPRESSION STROKE on #1, he could be on TDC comp stroke #6.
 
rustycowll69 said:
I agree to a point, but unless he is positive the cam is timed to TDC, COMPRESSION STROKE on #1, he could be on TDC comp stroke #6.
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You are sort of correct. The engine turns over 1 time in your scenario and it is back to compression stroke cylinder 1. Only the distributor would be 180 out. You would not have to re time the cam .....just lift the distributor spin 180 and drop back in.
 
You need to STOP, degree the cam and then verify TDC.

Edelbrock did NOT say to not degree the cam. They said don't move the intake centerline from to what they say it should be. Even that is stupid (on edelbrocks part) but at this point, you don't have any idea where the cam is installed.

Once you have verified TDC (not on the damper but TDC itself) and have the cam degreed then you can check TDC on the damper. The two are unrelated but you still need to check the cam.
 
340dartley said:
You are sort of correct. The engine turns over 1 time in your scenario and it is back to compression stroke cylinder 1. Only the distributor would be 180 out. You would not have to re time the cam .....just lift the distributor spin 180 and drop back in.
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agreed. As long as the OP is aware of that. I'm not convinced the OP is fully informed enough.
It was suggested once before, that builder should take a picture of the timing gears with dots lined up. I like that idea. It costs nothing in money or time.
 
"180 out" is a thing that happens when the distrib is installed when #1 is not on the compression stroke. with the dot on the crank gear at 12 oclock, the dot on the cam gear is at 12 oclock 1/2 the time , and 1 rotation of the crank it is at 6 oclock . install the distrib correct and it is fine. If the balancer has slipped-do not use it. could the balancer and the timing cover be mismatched? I do not know, not a big block expert-it can happen on a small block
 
if you are racing for the world - (or have a ford) you MUST degree in every cam! millions of engines run great simply by lining up the dots, Chrysler did not degree cams in on the assembly line. If the cam is not degreed in and ends up advanced, you will have more low end and less top end. if it ends up in the ballpark everyone is happy. if it ends up retarded, you will have less low end and more top end. install the distrib with #1 on the compression stroke with some ignition advance and go
 
I appreciate the concern on the degree issue which as I stated I planned on doing initially. but I do agree with Marcohotrod that degreeing a cam is good practice but not absolute for average street muscle car. That being said this is my first engine and I am sure those speaking know A LOT more than I do. I do however think at this point I should tear down the front, take the timing chain off, make POSITIVE I am on the TDC of the #1 Compression stroke and reassemble.. I do understand that IF I am on the #6 stroke that I should be able to set the distributer at the 6 cylinder and make that my #1. correct? - p.s. I do believe all parts are same year/engine. bought it assembled but obviously cant make certain years ago something wasn't changed. Please have some mercy haha trying to do this right and also learn.
 
440Leroy said:
I appreciate the concern on the degree issue which as I stated I planned on doing initially. but I do agree with Marcohotrod that degreeing a cam is good practice but not absolute for average street muscle car. That being said this is my first engine and I am sure those speaking know A LOT more than I do. I do however think at this point I should tear down the front, take the timing chain off, make POSITIVE I am on the TDC of the #1 Compression stroke and reassemble.. I do understand that IF I am on the #6 stroke that I should be able to set the distributer at the 6 cylinder and make that my #1. correct? - p.s. I do believe all parts are same year/engine. bought it assembled but obviously cant make certain years ago something wasn't changed. Please have some mercy haha trying to do this right and also learn.
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It doesn't matter if you are 180* out, because TDC of #1 is the same as TDC #6.

And I would say anyone who thinks only a Ford needs it cam degreed has done much work in the real world. I have seen every brand off. It's called tolerance stack up. At this point, you have no idea where the cam is.

There is a reason why some engines don't make power, are hard to tune and are a general piece of junk. It's because simple engine building processes are skipped.

Go back and degree the cam so you know where you are. Once you do that and verify TDC then check the timing mark. You already have the stuff to degree a cam. And then you misinterpreted what Edelbrock said about degreeing a cam.
 
To resolve any remarks about the indexing of the camshaft this is the litature that edelbrock and if iv misread this call me out I'm willing to take it bc I am new and willing to admit fault but please read and advise me where I was wrong with not degreeing the camshaft.. and I do have the preformed link set mentioned in this...

IMG_0904.JPG
 
Under CAUTION and DO NOT it says "install a Performer-Plus or Performer-RPM camshaft in an advanced or retarded position".

Is your cam in straight up? You have no idea because you didn't degree it. They are not say do not degree this cam. They are saying put it in straight up. And you didn't verify it. Just because you "lined up the dots" or put the gears straight up does not make it correct. The cam can have the key off, or the gears or the crank.

It's 2017 and I can't figure how anyone would tell you not to degree a cam, especially since you seem willing to learn. If you have been around long, and have been paid to do this, you don't ever assume anything.

Go back, degree the cam and put it where Vic says. Then check you timing Mark. There is no such thing as close enough in this. It's either checked, verified and correct or you are guessing. Don't guess. Know. PLEASE.

EDIT: it is the highest bit of arrogance for Edelbrock to tell you that their timing chain and gears are so perfect that you don't have to degree the cam, but if you use a different brand you have to do it. What bullcrap. You learn to check EVERYTHING, every time. I don't care whose name is on the box. Edelbrock isn't God. That's just the epitome of careless, self absorbed megalomania on the part of Edelbrock.
 
of course Edelbrock's cam and timing gears are more accurate, they wouldn't lie. What motive would they have to lie. Oh yeah, not only do they bully you into buying their timing gears, too, but you'll never know how INACCURATE they may be, because they told you not to check it, "just trust us".
I'm curious to the actual cam card. What are the specs on this cam, Leroy?
 
For the extent you are going there is sound advice above in dialing in your cam. A piston stop, degree wheel, and indicator is a worthwhile investment.
Visually comparing your balancer with a 440 source image, I'd say the balancer outer ring has not spun.
IMO, I think I'd pull the valve covers, back out the rocker train, and open the timing cover find the issue.
 
Daves69 said:
For the extent you are going there is sound advice above in dialing in your cam. A piston stop, degree wheel, and indicator is a worthwhile investment.
Visually comparing your balancer with a 440 source image, I'd say the balancer outer ring has not spun.
IMO, I think I'd pull the valve covers, back out the rocker train, and open the timing cover find the issue.
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That is exactly what I plan on doing. My intent with this post wasn't to invalidate the degreeing of a cam only to see if anyone had came across this situation and knew right off. Which my first thought before I posted anything was that im on the exhaust stroke. I was simply going by what Edelbrock said. as stated I did buy a degreeing kit with plans on doing so but when I read that I assumed there was not a need. I like the old saying, If youv never messed up then youv never tried.. Appreciate the comments and hopfully this will help someone else in the future.
 
440Leroy said:
That is exactly what I plan on doing. My intent with this post wasn't to invalidate the degreeing of a cam only to see if anyone had came across this situation and knew right off. Which my first thought before I posted anything was that im on the exhaust stroke. I was simply going by what Edelbrock said. as stated I did buy a degreeing kit with plans on doing so but when I read that I assumed there was not a need. I like the old saying, If youv never messed up then youv never tried.. Appreciate the comments and hopfully this will help someone else in the future.
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I think you are not completely understanding the idea of being at Tdc on the exhaust stroke or tdc on the power stroke. Top dead center has nothing to do with cam timing. Top dead center number 1 cylinder is verified using a piston stop as mentioned earlier. All this talk of cam degreeing came up because the first step of degreeing a cam is finding true top dead center. You say you have done this and it is 20 degrees off of your mark. Assuming you did it correctly that part is done. Make a new mark at the true top dead center Mark. Use this mark if you choose to degree your cam and set your ignition timing .
If you choose to not degree your cam then that is up to you. You are done. Your original question answered.
As far as the merits of degreeing a cam that is another subject. Thousands of motors are put together every day with out cam degreeing. Personally I highly recommend doing it on any performance motor but that is just me.
 
440Leroy said:
That is exactly what I plan on doing. My intent with this post wasn't to invalidate the degreeing of a cam only to see if anyone had came across this situation and knew right off. Which my first thought before I posted anything was that im on the exhaust stroke. I was simply going by what Edelbrock said. as stated I did buy a degreeing kit with plans on doing so but when I read that I assumed there was not a need. I like the old saying, If youv never messed up then youv never tried.. Appreciate the comments and hopfully this will help someone else in the future.
Click to expand...
If it helps any, I don't think you were alone in accepting Edelbrock's statement that you don't have to degree their stuff, because we had a previous thread, where the OP had the same rationale. He didn't quote the cam instructions like you did, but his words were suspiciously similar.
 
If you find your balancer has slipped, there's a company in Utah, that rebuilt my balancer. Can't remember the name. Google it.
 
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