8.8 Rear Axle, Couple Solutions

[68DartProject]

Unless you're rear is now becoming a steam pipe or some other heat supply or return pipe the above is correct.

If you can't make a good weld with two pieces joined at a bevel and being held true touching, you should MOST DEFINITELY not be doing this procedure.

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That joint is actually being welded for High Pressure Natural Gas 1104 procedure welded on a 45 degree angle fixed position from Phmsa rule and regulations. Tested and burst rated at 2750 psig along with x-rayed at every second joint. Now I would think that if one would to follow the procedures and have the set up and correct gap and welded it up accordingly it should be as strong as it was before it was cut. And with the pipe beveled or not they do not touch ever. You will not get a positive root bead in. And that is what causes failures period regardless of what is being welded. Strong point is the root. More test are failed because of not enough penetration.

 

[73SwingerBuild]

I wasn't insulting you on your intelligence. The last statement I made in my comment was meant for the gentleman that started the thread in asking the question on what to do. I think most have given pretty good advice. And yes all I was trying to do is focus on the safety portion on how it needs to be done correctly.

I was not referring to your comment. I was referring to Supershafts asking if I failed Engineering. It bothered me at first, but I'm willing to drop it because there's too much bickering on this damn website as it is.

Back to the OP, I think the axle shaft from the shorter side should be used to true up the bearings on the axle flange and the carrier and the axle tube should be trued up on either a machined piece of angle iron, multiple straight edges, or some other means of assuring a straight line on the axle shaft.

Once the axle is lined up, the welded area needs to be addressed. The gap should be measured with a micrometer and the gap should be set based on the wire being used. The bevel angle should also be set correctly. There's a lot to consider and I know there's alot of information available on it.

With regard to the original post, the loss of a few sixteenths of an inch should not be an issue. The spring perches just need to be welded at the correct width.

Any comments on the above? Or additional items to consider? I'm quite curious myself for my own knowledge for future projects, and I know it will help Eric with his.

-Mike

 

[jrlegacy23]

Boy ol' Supershafts is having a naysaying heyday isn't he? Deyam dude.

Supershafts, you made your point, now quit hogging the soapbox, unless you have a more detailed response on how to positively move on with the OP's project. Some nice pictures of a straight axle jig, or maybe even a good weld process, would be great.

Thanks!

Pretty much thinking the exact same thing. Everyone else is wrong, he is right, it only works his way, etc. etc. Sometimes too much talk like that causes people to disregard what he is posting, especially when he hasn't posted anything that he has done.

 

[OldmanRick]

Don't be too hard on Supershafts. Yes he sometimes comes off brash in his posts, but for the most part what i've seen from him is legit. I too am concerned about the integrity of the setup. Your creating a possible weak link between the upward pinion force and the clamping force at the spring mount. The welds in your pics are beautiful and i don't doubt they are strong and non porous, but is the integrity of the tube comprimised? I have been around this stuff long enough to know when something just doesn't look right. I'm not saying it's not gonna work, because as i said in a earlier post, i'm not a certified welder or a engineer. I guess what i'm trying to say is please monitor the final result closely to make sure everything is cool when it actully hits the road. I just want you to be safe:thumblef:.

 

[Supershafts]

Boy ol' Supershafts is having a naysaying heyday isn't he? Deyam dude.

Hey, look welds are always stronger than the base material. I really don't see how this is a issue, besides filling the gap, lot of folks have just done it. Cut it, beveled it, tossed a fat arc 7013 or wire feed weld into it, cleaned it up and called it, no problems, no drama, no breakage, including myself.

Hell the axle shaft spins more freely in the side I modified. OMFG.... Things didn't go perfectly at first, and I didn't use a straight edge either..... C'mon guys.

There is such a thing as too much jackin' the jaws, and not enough doing, and there is a saying in engineering, K.I.S.S. keep it simple man.

The whole "OMG WERE GONNA DIEEZZZ" is taking it too far. If you take as much time making sure the alignment you do is good, as you did chatting about it on a car fourm, you should be in good shape.

Supershafts, you made your point, now quit hogging the soapbox, unless you have a more detailed response on how to positively move on with the OP's project. Some nice pictures of a straight axle jig, or maybe even a good weld process, would be great.

Thanks!

This is why i always contemplate saying anything at all, some people get lucky.

My advice stands, bring it to a professional

No matter what i say here or explain you will never be able to use it, training employees takes many attempts and some never make it and get let go, so explaining it once with no hands on help is going to very possibly get you or someone hurt.

That joint is actually being welded for High Pressure Natural Gas 1104 procedure welded on a 45 degree angle fixed position from Phmsa rule and regulations. Tested and burst rated at 2750 psig along with x-rayed at every second joint. Now I would think that if one would to follow the procedures and have the set up and correct gap and welded it up accordingly it should be as strong as it was before it was cut. And with the pipe beveled or not they do not touch ever. You will not get a positive root bead in. And that is what causes failures period regardless of what is being welded. Strong point is the root. More test are failed because of not enough penetration.

I have made thousands of welds with the ends touching. When the tubes are set in a holding fixture they have pressure at the ends holding the ends onto the tube, on center of the center section bearing saddles. If the set up or prepping isn't done right then that's the fault of the so called pro welder if the weld fails.


In my line of work my welds are regularly tested at anywhere from as little as 1k to 40k ft lbs or more so saying that butting it up and welding isn't strong because i left no gap isn't accurate at all, if you have a problem with making that weld work with the pieces touching than you shouldn't be, and have no business to be welding an area that can put you or your passengers in a situation they didn't need to be in.

No one tells there stories of there backyard engineering gone wrong, not the gentlemen who lost his son or the gentlemen who's weld broke and his car went off the highway severely injuring his entire family, BOTH were rear end related modifications.

This is where the engineering and over-thinking comes in (he said it and clearly wasn't), have you thought about your expertise in this area to be making changes to this area of a car to be safe around others not to mention yourself and your passengers, if you're asking questions on the internet about this area of modifications then im sorry if i adamantly feel you shouldn't be doing it the backyard way of doing it.
If that offends you then so be it, if you can't understand it that way, then maybe this will make you understand....

when you need heart surgery i'll do it for you without the 50k procedure, since reading about it in such great detail and getting advice on the internet come over to me and i'll do your heart surgery.

Pretty much thinking the exact same thing. Everyone else is wrong, he is right, it only works his way, etc. etc. Sometimes too much talk like that causes people to disregard what he is posting, especially when he hasn't posted anything that he has done.

I have simply said in many threads like this that you can't do something once and think you're doing it right, then when it is explained how to do it right someone else puts up pics of how to do it wrong.
So why should i bother to explain it again after i have in many other threads explained how to correctly and you do not make the attempt to do it right.
If you want to see what i have done feel free to see my site and view it.
To do it right will cost you more than having a professional shop do it for you, and since the issue on EVERY forum is always about saving money doing it backyard style rather than doing it safely and correctly than surely spending a few thousand buying the right holders and jigs will be totally out of the question.
So if you aren't going to spend $200/$300 to have it done correctly why would i believe you'll spend $1 or $2k buying the right equipment to do it right.


I gave my advice, i'd rather you spend a few hundred with a pro then end up hurt or dead.

If you want to not hear/read another word then do not go on with what i have said, and i would not have said another word in this thread, i was done before then the last three dragged me back.
.

 

[Supershafts]

Don't be too hard on Supershafts. Yes he sometimes comes off brash in his posts, but for the most part what i've seen from him is legit. I too am concerned about the integrity of the setup. Your creating a possible weak link between the upward pinion force and the clamping force at the spring mount. The welds in your pics are beautiful and i don't doubt they are strong and non porous, but is the integrity of the tube comprimised? I have been around this stuff long enough to know when something just doesn't look right. I'm not saying it's not gonna work, because as i said in a earlier post, i'm not a certified welder or a engineer. I guess what i'm trying to say is please monitor the final result closely to make sure everything is cool when it actully hits the road. I just want you to be safe:thumblef:.

Exaclty, thank you OldmanRick There is over-thinking, the modification being between the gear section and the spring mount.

There is a reason the tubes are always installed long and ends are always added at the end.

1. the weld ALWAYS moves the tube
2. the center section houses the gears and that section will want to twist up on accel and down on decel
The weld in the middle is now subject not only to those 2 forces, but also the bending forward and aft and the up and down.
This is why i quoted your engineering comment and over-thinking.


Like i said also people get lucky, my friend had a guy cut his rods to shorten them to get the piston to zero deck....

Would i ever do that, hell no, would any of you ???
My friend and I also build motors, neither of us thought that could work and last past 3k rpm.

It actually worked and he screamed that pos to 6500 in a burnout in the shops driveway thru 3 gears and then left in another burnout...

What have i learned, wrong things work sometimes, but im still not going to do it.

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[68DartProject]

I have made thousands of welds with the ends touching. When the tubes are set in a holding fixture they have pressure at the ends holding the ends onto the tube, on center of the center section bearing saddles. If the set up or prepping isn't done right then that's the fault of the so called pro welder if the weld fails.
In my line of work my welds are regularly tested at anywhere from as little as 1k to 40k ft lbs or more so saying that butting it up and welding isn't strong because i left no gap isn't accurate at all, if you have a problem with making that weld work with the pieces touching than you shouldn't be, and have no business to be welding an area that can put you or your passengers in a situation they didn't need to be in.
No one tells there stories of there backyard engineering gone wrong, not the gentlemen who lost his son or the gentlemen who's weld broke and his car went off the highway severely injuring his entire family, BOTH were rear end related modifications.
This is where the engineering and over-thinking comes in (he said it and clearly wasn't), have you thought about your expertise in this area to be making changes to this area of a car to be safe around others not to mention yourself and your passengers, if you're asking questions on the internet about this area of modifications then im sorry if i adamantly feel you shouldn't be doing it the backyard way of doing it.
If that offends you then so be it, if you can't understand it that way, then maybe this will make you understand....
when you need heart surgery i'll do it for you without the 50k procedure, since reading about it in such great detail and getting advice on the internet come over to me and i'll do your heart surgery.
.

That's great! glad you got thousands of welds under your belt. When you do a G6 fixed position on 8" .250 wall let me know when you pass it. That weld certifies even for NASA. I tell ya what, I probably have burned more rods than most, working on pipelines with local 798 for 10 to 12 years. If you ain't burning 72 inches start to finish complete in 8 hours you ain't doing s**t. Now that is on anything from 2" to 52" pipe with pipe wall from .188 to .750. Being you said that what I mentioned isn't accurate show me a manual where it shows different on pipe, that is all this rear end is "Pipe". Please show me, I have never found a manual in school or in the field that shows ya "hey just butt this s**t up and weld it". Hell we have all done it, does that make it right; No! As far as me being one of the three for pulling you back, you chose to come back nobody pulled your leg to write something again. Oh I don't do my stuff in the back yard bullshit anyways.

 

[Supershafts]

68DartProject

.
That's great! glad you got thousands of welds under your belt. When you do a G6 fixed position on 8" .250 wall let me know when you pass it. That weld certifies even for NASA. I tell ya what, I probably have burned more rods than most, working on pipelines with local 798 for 10 to 12 years. If you ain't burning 72 inches start to finish complete in 8 hours you ain't doing s**t. Now that is on anything from 2" to 52" pipe with pipe wall from .188 to .750. Being you said that what I mentioned isn't accurate show me a manual where it shows different on pipe, that is all this rear end is "Pipe". Please show me, I have never found a manual in school or in the field that shows ya "hey just butt this s**t up and weld it". Hell we have all done it, does that make it right; No! As far as me being one of the three for pulling you back, you chose to come back nobody pulled your leg to write something again. Oh I don't do my stuff in the back yard bullshit anyways.

I didn't say butt to butt with no prepping, why are you so twisted over what i said in reference to you, you read all that as it was directed at you only, read the rest of this thread and figure it out, the 1st and 2nd part was in answer to you..
The rest had nothing to do with you but since you got so twisted and had to bring nasa bs into this then apparently i have to rebuttal again since you seem to miss things unless it is done STEP by STEP...

You are now the one saying that the ends can not touch or they will break, and THE ONLY way to weld this is AS YOU Stated, WRONG it is not and wouldn't be if this is done correctly.

So you are saying, i want to be clear because i can see without the step by step with you that you get lost and get all pissed off...

So you are saying that you can not take a pipe or in this case tube from a rear and bevel it correctly using a beveled butt style weld or as it is called in your nasa world beveled butt joint or is it a beveled u butt joint and you can't do that without it breaking because it is touching at a minute area where the 2 points or 2 slight flats touch. (may also be technically classified as a groove joint weld)

You are welding pipe together for holding pressure, they are lined up from the OUTSIDE (as i have done high press steam pipes) this is a rear that is supposed to be done to be true to its centerline and hold the axle in perfect alignment from the INSIDE dimensions (on a rear we do not care about outside dimensions), when you do this you need pressure against the beveled butt/u or groove joints to be able to slightly knock the end to perfect TRUE alignment, without any pressure holding the two against each other they fall out of line and will not be perfectly true, now in your nasa pipe world of welding you can lay them end to end in a different jig from the OUTSIDE, BUT as you know with pipe/tube they aren't always truly perfectly round or completely lets say .188 wall all the way thru if you ever have to keep them in line from inside dimensions which you most likely aren't familar with as is shown in a picture above there is no clue as to what and how it is done.....

SO KNOWING that now and knowing we have to be in perfect alignment as per the center sections inside main bearing saddles center point, WE just can't do it any old way you are used to welding PIPE from the outside, see this isn't PIPE it is a tube in a rear that needs to be in perfect line by it's inside dimensions not the outside, and by doing that, IN MANY MANY case there is misalignment that can be measured or seen on the outside, doing it as if it WAS pipe we would have pos cars that are binding and losing more performance and mpg thru the lessons of welding PIPE.
Keep the pipe and nasa where it belongs


So as to be clear with you.....

I mentioned isn't accurate show me a manual where it shows different on pipe, that is all this rear end is "Pipe"

as i re-mentioned to clarify with you that in reality it is SHAPED like a pipe but it is in FACT not doing the same as a pipe and not assembled the same as a PIPE as you do now know.

You're welding pipe, im welding working moving tubes and other pieces exerted to multiple forces exceeding 40,000 ft lbs at my welds that are groove style, u style, bevel butt style, plug style i even do versions of over lapping fillet style welds, so when im worried about keeping people alive and not being subjected to a shaft at 900 lbs seeing 40k or 50,000 ft lbs of torque thrown at them i use those style welds, not pipe welds even though my tubes are shaped like a pipe.



Here is my last bit of technical help on doing rear end modifications..

All brackets and perches are to be installed 1st, and finish welded then you put the fixture assembly into the rear then add the ends to the fixture and then true the ends to the center and then weld the ends on since ALL welds on TUBES move the tubes and WILL misaligned the housing.

Again we aren't welding pipe, and there is only one way to do this, that is the right way, every other way is wrong.


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[Supershafts]

Oh and most ALL rear end tubes are welded tube and not dom tube making the job of getting them true to center important since welded tube is always different on the inside then dom.

 

[68DartProject]

Na I'm not pissed off at all, never was. This is just a simple forum. I will go along with the tubing needing to be center line from the inside and things trued up accordingly . I never said that it would break if you let them touch when they don't have enough gap. Didn't mention that you was not mentioning about prep work either. We are assuming this has already been done with the correct bevels and all the jigs needed. I said you would not get the correct penetration needed. I did mention that yes we have probably all did it where sometime you can't help it when it touches, then you have to roll with it. I don't work for Nasa just mentioned that G6 position is recognized by them and many. Your right when you say line up industry pipe on the outside and go with it. As for me saying this or that or getting confused or twisted, nope not at all. I didn't go all in depth as to the correct alignment as you have. My focus was more to making sure that it is done correctly and to take it to someone that is capable of doing it. After some research and looking into it more you are dead on with the procedure. It takes all kinds to make this world go around and experts everywhere. I don't do rear ends. Never had to weld one up but from looking at them one could simply say, yep that is pipe and align it as you would pipe. Not looking at the whole picture of axles, bearings and center could lead to disaster for sure. I still think though, once one got started and got things perfect and aligned that you would still want the best penetration as possible.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[68DartProject]

double post by accident LOL

 

[73SwingerBuild]

So, Eric, how does an 8-3/4" rear look now? Lol

I know for sure that i will not be the one welding this together. Too many variables for me. How hard is it to get an axle shaft and tube from the shorter side?

 

[jarvitron]

Line it up with a micrometer, use some straps to hold it to some angle for straightness, carefully align all the border molecules in a max-surface area beveled zig-zag with your scanning electron microscope and then stick the whole thing in a truck and take it to a 4x4 shop where you will meet an old man with a tuft of yellowing hair and a trail of horrible juice coming out of one ear. They will say "you are doing what?" and then they will pretend to listen while a guy takes it into the back and stares at it. "THIS IS A LITTLE SHORT" he will yell as if somehow the volume in the area has changed dramatically even though it hasn't. Slopear will look at you again as if you suddenly appeared in a plume of red smoke, then he will fish around in his pocket for something and leave. Then, the other man will be back with your welded axle. He will say "This was a little short" and then he'll hand it to you and take your credit card. A redneck in the parking lot will say "8.8s are for pussies" and point out his modified airport cart mover differential on the rear of his articulated Ford Escape 5.0/SAS swap. A vision will flood out the rational and real world, swirling eons of progress will flow through your vision, the entirety of human existence to this point, but instead of ending on a rocket launch to deep space or universal understanding, you end on his shitty Stain'D-mural SUV-buggy jumping, black smoke contrails, over a Flint Michigan city limits sign which says "Closed for renovation: soon open under new management!", you zoom out and realize you've seen all of this reflected on the cheek-tear of a roadside native american, and you'll shudder, having seen the end. Then you'll put your axle in and it'll be fine.

Somebody earlier said it best. Too much jaw jackin' and not enough doin'. If you feel uncomfortable welding over that gap, then don't. Ask somebody else to. If you take it to a driveshaft shop with an OK reputation and they're like "whoa dude what the **** start over", then they'll likely HAVE a scrap 8.8 around that they can cut a new end-bit off from. And if they're really good, they'll have a jig to make sure the end is square. WHAT A LOVELY RESOURCE, a shop that has both experience with and equipment for EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and EXACTLY THE ITEM YOU ARE DOING IT WITH?

I mean, if you've already decided you can't do it (you can do it, but a lot of people on this board do not like answering questions, they like being, I'm not sure how to describe it... like if pedantic married nostalgic and they had a baby who only knew how to explain which way stuff is different from how mommy and daddy said). But if you've decided you can't or don't want to (and I don't blame you) then go to where mf-ers break 8.8's all day - the 4x4 shop, and not where people kvetch about which 40 year old metal platings are "right" to have.

 

[daredevil]

Just wondering here.Would it hurt to take that 3/16 off the axle shaft and butt it up. Dont think you would ever notice less than a quarter inch difference.

 

[Idaho]

Line it up with a micrometer, use some straps to hold it to some angle for straightness, carefully align all the border molecules in a max-surface area beveled zig-zag with your scanning electron microscope and then stick the whole thing in a truck and take it to a 4x4 shop where you will meet an old man with a tuft of yellowing hair and a trail of horrible juice coming out of one ear. They will say "you are doing what?" and then they will pretend to listen while a guy takes it into the back and stares at it. "THIS IS A LITTLE SHORT" he will yell as if somehow the volume in the area has changed dramatically even though it hasn't. Slopear will look at you again as if you suddenly appeared in a plume of red smoke, then he will fish around in his pocket for something and leave. Then, the other man will be back with your welded axle. He will say "This was a little short" and then he'll hand it to you and take your credit card. A redneck in the parking lot will say "8.8s are for pussies" and point out his modified airport cart mover differential on the rear of his articulated Ford Escape 5.0/SAS swap. A vision will flood out the rational and real world, swirling eons of progress will flow through your vision, the entirety of human existence to this point, but instead of ending on a rocket launch to deep space or universal understanding, you end on his shitty Stain'D-mural SUV-buggy jumping, black smoke contrails, over a Flint Michigan city limits sign which says "Closed for renovation: soon open under new management!", you zoom out and realize you've seen all of this reflected on the cheek-tear of a roadside native american, and you'll shudder, having seen the end. Then you'll put your axle in and it'll be fine.

Somebody earlier said it best. Too much jaw jackin' and not enough doin'. If you feel uncomfortable welding over that gap, then don't. Ask somebody else to. If you take it to a driveshaft shop with an OK reputation and they're like "whoa dude what the **** start over", then they'll likely HAVE a scrap 8.8 around that they can cut a new end-bit off from. And if they're really good, they'll have a jig to make sure the end is square. WHAT A LOVELY RESOURCE, a shop that has both experience with and equipment for EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and EXACTLY THE ITEM YOU ARE DOING IT WITH?

I mean, if you've already decided you can't do it (you can do it, but a lot of people on this board do not like answering questions, they like being, I'm not sure how to describe it... like if pedantic married nostalgic and they had a baby who only knew how to explain which way stuff is different from how mommy and daddy said). But if you've decided you can't or don't want to (and I don't blame you) then go to where mf-ers break 8.8's all day - the 4x4 shop, and not where people kvetch about which 40 year old metal platings are "right" to have.

LOL. That's some seriously pithy sarcasm conveyed with voluminous vocabulary. I hope you are making good use of your silver pen.

 

[73SwingerBuild]

Line it up with a micrometer, use some straps to hold it to some angle for straightness, carefully align all the border molecules in a max-surface area beveled zig-zag with your scanning electron microscope and then stick the whole thing in a truck and take it to a 4x4 shop where you will meet an old man with a tuft of yellowing hair and a trail of horrible juice coming out of one ear. They will say "you are doing what?" and then they will pretend to listen while a guy takes it into the back and stares at it. "THIS IS A LITTLE SHORT" he will yell as if somehow the volume in the area has changed dramatically even though it hasn't. Slopear will look at you again as if you suddenly appeared in a plume of red smoke, then he will fish around in his pocket for something and leave. Then, the other man will be back with your welded axle. He will say "This was a little short" and then he'll hand it to you and take your credit card. A redneck in the parking lot will say "8.8s are for pussies" and point out his modified airport cart mover differential on the rear of his articulated Ford Escape 5.0/SAS swap. A vision will flood out the rational and real world, swirling eons of progress will flow through your vision, the entirety of human existence to this point, but instead of ending on a rocket launch to deep space or universal understanding, you end on his shitty Stain'D-mural SUV-buggy jumping, black smoke contrails, over a Flint Michigan city limits sign which says "Closed for renovation: soon open under new management!", you zoom out and realize you've seen all of this reflected on the cheek-tear of a roadside native american, and you'll shudder, having seen the end. Then you'll put your axle in and it'll be fine.

Somebody earlier said it best. Too much jaw jackin' and not enough doin'. If you feel uncomfortable welding over that gap, then don't. Ask somebody else to. If you take it to a driveshaft shop with an OK reputation and they're like "whoa dude what the **** start over", then they'll likely HAVE a scrap 8.8 around that they can cut a new end-bit off from. And if they're really good, they'll have a jig to make sure the end is square. WHAT A LOVELY RESOURCE, a shop that has both experience with and equipment for EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and EXACTLY THE ITEM YOU ARE DOING IT WITH?

I mean, if you've already decided you can't do it (you can do it, but a lot of people on this board do not like answering questions, they like being, I'm not sure how to describe it... like if pedantic married nostalgic and they had a baby who only knew how to explain which way stuff is different from how mommy and daddy said). But if you've decided you can't or don't want to (and I don't blame you) then go to where mf-ers break 8.8's all day - the 4x4 shop, and not where people kvetch about which 40 year old metal platings are "right" to have.

Absolutely hilarious, and probably the best way to convey the general theme of this thread. Getting it done by a professional seems like the best bet. Otherwise, find another axle to source the shorter axle and axle tube from.

Done.

 

[Woods74]

Done.

Thank god, I think I just came.... :angel8: