alternative to Comp springs?

[70Hardtop]

They do lose pressure, which was likely contributing to valve float. I can't imagine what else it could have been. That's when I replaced the springs with new ones, but at higher pressures. I just don't have a spring tester handy to help figure out their life cycle and rate of degradation. My engine builder is a couple of hours away and I don't visit too often. But they do last several seasons, even with the Stock class cam profiles, which tend to be as aggressive as you can get with composite flat tappet lifters. The only cam specs that are limited are lifters (flat if it came flat OEM) and cam lift. Duration and opening/closing ramps are much more aggressive than typical performance cams.

There are different materials and processes (cryo & micro finishing/polishing) which can prolong spring life. But it may not always be feasible. Some race combos replace springs very often, depending on the application, rpm and cam profile, even with better metallurgy & treatments.

Very interesting... Well I suppose if nothing else changed, and you got valve float, then that's what it wold most likely be, the springs losing tension. It's amazing how valve springs can actually be so good for so long IMO. Look at stock valves springs - really they are only only just wire, spring steel in a coil. But can last 40 years of use and still be able to keep the engine going well enough in normal circumstances.

At the beginning of this year I was considering sending my 8 3/4 pumpkin to Sydney (opposite end of the country for me) to get cryo-processed. I spoke to the fellow who owned the business. They cryo treat racing parts with liquid nitrogen for stronger and more durable life. I was surprised when he said that he puts all his valve springs in the treatment as well. It lasts a whole week - they slowly take the parts down to minus whatever it is (super cold) and keep them there for a few days, then slowly bring them back to room temperature, and by slowly, it is around 5 days! He races and he said the valve springs last a great deal longer. What it does is makes the metal much more uniform and perfect in grain structure, it takes out the micro stresses that could never been seen even under a microscope and aligns the grains in the structure. In the case of my pumpkin, he said he puts the whole thing in there, no need to disassemble it. It was very interesting.

 

[duster360]

Lunati has waaayyyy better quality springs than comp cams.

 

[Locomotion]

Very interesting... Well I suppose if nothing else changed, and you got valve float, then that's what it wold most likely be, the springs losing tension. It's amazing how valve springs can actually be so good for so long IMO. Look at stock valves springs - really they are only only just wire, spring steel in a coil. But can last 40 years of use and still be able to keep the engine going well enough in normal circumstances.

At the beginning of this year I was considering sending my 8 3/4 pumpkin to Sydney (opposite end of the country for me) to get cryo-processed. I spoke to the fellow who owned the business. They cryo treat racing parts with liquid nitrogen for stronger and more durable life. I was surprised when he said that he puts all his valve springs in the treatment as well. It lasts a whole week - they slowly take the parts down to minus whatever it is (super cold) and keep them there for a few days, then slowly bring them back to room temperature, and by slowly, it is around 5 days! He races and he said the valve springs last a great deal longer. What it does is makes the metal much more uniform and perfect in grain structure, it takes out the micro stresses that could never been seen even under a microscope and aligns the grains in the structure. In the case of my pumpkin, he said he puts the whole thing in there, no need to disassemble it. It was very interesting.

There is a big difference in the applications springs are used in. OEM is lower rpm with a somewhat mild profile. Lobe ramps open ans close the valves at a gradual rate and there is much less heat generated. Aggressive race cams have steeper ramps that open & close the valves faster and work at higher rpm's. You get valve float when the spring isn't stiff enough to keep the lifter on the cam lobe and can actually launch the lifter off of the lobe if the ramp and/or rpm exceeds the spring's capabilities. The spring also has to be stiff enough to keep the valve seated after it closes to prevent it from bouncing off of the seat at higher rpm's. Bend a coat hanger back & forth for a while. It will generate a LOT of heat and eventually break. A lot of science goes into springs so to minimize pressure loss, heat & breakage.

It's amazing what springs go through. Look up valve spring testing (spin-tron) with slo-mo video.

 

[70Hardtop]

There is a big difference in the applications springs are used in. OEM is lower rpm with a somewhat mild profile. Lobe ramps open ans close the valves at a gradual rate and there is much less heat generated. Aggressive race cams have steeper ramps that open & close the valves faster and work at higher rpm's. You get valve float when the spring isn't stiff enough to keep the lifter on the cam lobe and can actually launch the lifter off of the lobe if the ramp and/or rpm exceeds the spring's capabilities. The spring also has to be stiff enough to keep the valve seated after it closes to prevent it from bouncing off of the seat at higher rpm's. Bend a coat hanger back & forth for a while. It will generate a LOT of heat and eventually break. A lot of science goes into springs so to minimize pressure loss, heat & breakage.

It's amazing what springs go through. Look up valve spring testing (spin-tron) with slo-mo video.

Good answer - yeah I can see that normal driving and OE springs working within the intended design capabilities of the engine will be way less stressed and go happily for a great many years, doing that function well within their physical properties.

I would also love to see the 'unseen' side of the valve spring industry - the companies that make and supply them to all the various brands and which countries they are made, I'm sure not all would be made in the US. Maybe Canada, Mexico?, India? China (ugggh). India has a lot of technology invested in metal process and metallurgy. I'm just talking about the US car aftermarket springs here, not asian or Euro. Just look at some of the spring suppliers: Iskenderian, Manley, Mellings, CompCams, Crower, Lunati, Crane, Trick Flow (which they say straight out on the box are PAC Racing) PAC themselves, K-Motion, CrowCams, Howards Cams, Jegs & Summit do their own brand (Chinese?), Mopar Performance, Sealed Power, Ford, Scorpion, Pioneer, Mahle, plus there would be a lot more.

 

[PRH]

I am wondering that if Comp source their springs from PAC, maybe they are exactly the same

All you’d have to do to see they aren’t at all the same spring is look at the dimensions.

PAC is a spring manufacturer....... Comp(and basically every other cam grinder) is a spring retailer.

 

[70Hardtop]

All you’d have to do to see they aren’t at all the same spring is look at the dimensions.

PAC is a spring manufacturer....... Comp(and basically every other cam grinder) is a spring retailer.

Don't exactly agree with that, PAC also sells springs, under their own name PAC Racing. And as I said previously, TrickFlow have written on the box "...by PAC racing" - what I meant was not physically the same spring but someone else mentioned that Comp Cams use PAC springs, so if that is the case then they would get PAC to make them according to their own specifications and dimensions. I'm sure PAC have differing types of metals and wire and manufacturing processes for the price ranges and the requirements and numbers produced. Everything is made according to quality desired, price and quantity required. So I would not be surprised if some CC springs in a certain performance and price range would be the same as some PAC springs in the same category. Of course, dimensions could alter somewhat but I'm sure the same materials and technique would be used for certain categories of springs.

 

[PRH]

Referring to the comp 995 vs the pac 1908 you said:

maybe they are exactly the same

And I responded that if you looked at the physical dimensions of the springs you’ll see that’s not possible.
They aren’t the same size, or even the same type of spring.

“Exactly the same” to my way of thinking means, if you took one of each of those springs out of the box and set them on the bench, you wouldn’t know which was which.

Your original post was that you were looking for an alternative to some comp 995’s that you’re not happy with.

I provided you with just that....... from a source where you don’t have to wonder who made it.

Trust me, I know how a lot of things in this industry are intertwined........ I’ve been doing it for 29 years.

 

[Locomotion]

Valve springs, car batteries, lifters and more, probably even washing machines, have but a few actual manufacturers. "IF" there are any differences between original & relabeled products, most won't draw attention to it. I believe that in most cases, the specs and/or materials have no or very little difference in such a product. It's cheaper to make your own stuff and relabeled stuff on the same assembly line rather than change something or have a second line. I'm sure their are some proprietary items made and only available to the company that asked for a custom product, but those are some of the exceptions rather than the usual procedure. You can learn a lot by doing comparative research.

Back when Sears had their top of the line Die-Hard Platinum AGM batteries, I bought a pair for my dually. Aside from the colors of the batteries and I believe a few numbers difference in the specs just to throw you off, they looked exactly like Odyssey batteries. They were a lot cheaper but performed as well as I expected Odysseys to perform and worked flawlessly for a full 7 years. I can only speculate as to why they are no longer available from Sears.

 

[QuickDart360]

Using crane's part # 69308 which come with retainers. These seem like a good fit.

 

[70Hardtop]

Referring to the comp 995 vs the pac 1908 you said:


And I responded that if you looked at the physical dimensions of the springs you’ll see that’s not possible.
They aren’t the same size, or even the same type of spring.

“Exactly the same” to my way of thinking means, if you took one of each of those springs out of the box and set them on the bench, you wouldn’t know which was which.

Your original post was that you were looking for an alternative to some comp 995’s that you’re not happy with.

I provided you with just that....... from a source where you don’t have to wonder who made it.

Trust me, I know how a lot of things in this industry are intertwined........ I’ve been doing it for 29 years.

Listen, I think you are splitting hairs here and being very literal - yes I did say "exactly" maybe the wrong word, but in context it could be seen what I was saying. Which I will explain in more detail below. Also you took the thing I said out of context as well. This is not good practice as it often leads to wrong conclusions being made.

What I actually said in that post is "... I am wondering that if Comp source their springs from PAC, maybe they are exactly the same, with just slightly different rates/specs etc" I wasn't actually referring to the 995 vs 1908 recommendation either, I was just generalising. B3RE has informed us that he knows that Comp source their springs (I can only assume all of them?) from PAC Racing, who are a spring manufacturer as well as a retailer.

Also, I think Locomotion also has said what most people should have realised is that there is likely only a handful of spring manufacturers, just as there may only be a few lifter manufacturers, but a multitude of retailers, many of whom would have contracts with the manufacturers for making springs to suit their own requirements and specifications.

If a retailer (Comp Cams) buys a middle of the road spring at a certain price point from a manufacturer who also sells their own springs (PAC) with very similar specifications and entry price then one could assume that those two springs would not differ very much physically. They may look slightly different, different colour, have different heights etc but essentially MAY be basically the same spring. It doesn't make economic sense, esp in this cut-throat world of business to manufacture two completely different springs to satisfy a common requirement and performance/reliability/price level.

Let's say Manley also get their springs from PAC, just for this discussion. But their price level for the same end use of a similar spring is double that of Comp. In this case, I have no doubt that the critical metallurgy would be different, along with probably some extra manufacturing processes and testing and more quality control systems in place which all take more time and money. Cost and profit viability is the absolute overriding factor these days for manufactured items. Although no doubt there are retailers who have a better reputation than others and may use a similar product but increase the price simply because they know that people will buy it based just on the name.