Early A Radiator help

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djwhog

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OK since I have a 416 in the 64 Dart and my old radiator is tired and also made on the low end side for cooling this beast I need some input from what others are doing or have done. Has any tried one of the 70 cores to see if they bolt right in? Maybe I can take one of these or get a custom 4 core in this design if it bolts it?

So 1st off I was wondering if I was to keep it fairly stock I noticed most parts companies do list 70 and up and not the early cars for radiators. This is mostly OK since I have the later style water pump which matches these cars. I am just not sure if the radiator from a 70 dart will bolt right in or not? I have below the specs and pics from HD and non HD offerings for a 70 Dart. The sizes are very close to what the 64 has now. Only issue I see is they are all still 2 rows and I would prefer I think a 4 core, or is it much better to go with aluminum?

1st picture
Make: 70 Dart 340 or 318 with HD cooling CHRYSLER
Core Size: 17 x 22 x 1 1/4
No. of Rows: 2
Tank Inlet: 3 3/8 x 21 5/8
Tank Outlet: 2 x 21 5/8
Inlet Connection: 1 1/2 Top Left
Outlet Connection: 1 3/4 Bottom Right
TOC: 10
Construction: Copper Brass
Mounting: Front Flange

2nd picture
Make: 70 Dart 318 and non HD cooling CHRYSLER
Core Size: 17 1/4 x 18 5/8 x 1 1/4
No. of Rows: 2
Tank Inlet: 2 7/8 x 18 1/4
Tank Outlet: 1 3/4 x 18 1/2
Inlet Connection: 1 1/2 Top Left
Outlet Connection: 1 3/4 Bottom Right
TOC: 10
Construction: Copper Brass
Mounting: Front Flange
Comments: Sensor Fitting on Top Tank

thanks!

433526.jpg


433409.jpg
 
My '64 V8 Barracuda came with a narrow radiator opening offset to the left side behind the grille. I'm pretty sure all of the 1964 cars had this narrow opening. I think this is because the bodies were originally designed for a slant 6. The 6 leans to the right & the water pump sticks out toward the left side a bit. This pretty much centers the fan & pump behind the offset radiator. When the V8 came out in 1964 the radiator opening was still offset, & I'm assuming that they re-tooled for the next model year to fit a 22" radiator. You could probably make a 22" radiator fit your car but it would be partially obscured from the airflow. If you cut the opening larger you'll have to use some sort of spacer when you mount it on the right side or the radiator will be crooked across the front of the engine compartment. I bought a radiator yoke from a '66 car & plan to graft that onto my car so a larger radiator will fit & still look correct.
 
'64 Cuda said:
My '64 V8 Barracuda came with a narrow radiator opening offset to the left side behind the grille. I'm pretty sure all of the 1964 cars had this narrow opening. I think this is because the bodies were originally designed for a slant 6. The 6 leans to the right & the water pump sticks out toward the left side a bit. This pretty much centers the fan & pump behind the offset radiator. When the V8 came out in 1964 the radiator opening was still offset, & I"m assuming that they re-tooled for the next model year to fit a 22" radiator. You could probably make a 22" radiator fit your car but it would be partially obscured from the airflow. If you cut the opening larger you'll have to use some sort of spacer when you mount it on the right side or the radiator will be crooked across the front of the engine compartment. I bought a radiator yoke from a '66 car & plan to graft that onto my car so a larger radiator will fit & still look correct.
Click to expand...

Basically this is what I did. I used a core support out of a 65 Cuda with a 22 in factory three core radiator.

Just so you know, they sit at an angle from the factory cause the motor doesn't sit straight in those cars. I tripped on it at first until I notice the motor was slightly angled too. Fan sits perfectly square with the radiator.
 
OK thanks guys, yep i see i nmy car the hole for eve nthe stocker is offset and I agre this was for /6 I think.

So even if I could go to say a larger unit and get a real 4 core size. I would gain in fluid capacity and surface area too. Yes to get max benifit I would also need to open the passenger side of the core support up a little too.

Still not sure, mabe I just need a custom unit made using my old braketcs with newer better technolgy?

But I do like the idea of using a later model. Seems that only the 70s up are listed again I think it has to do with the later water pump inlet location.

Thanks! open for what still others have done too
 
Is aluminum better? No, copper is a better conductor of heat. Are aluminum radiators repairable? Not really. Are aluminum radiators lighter? Maybe a little but you're gonna fill it with heavy old water. Are aluminum radiators cheaper? Yes, copper is expensive so the OEM's and the after market have switched to aluminum. You probably have a better selection with aluminum.

You'll want to convert to a 22" core anyhow.
 
C130 Chief said:
Is aluminum better? No, copper is a better conductor of heat. Are aluminum radiators repairable? Not really. Are aluminum radiators lighter? Maybe a little but you're gonna fill it with heavy old water. Are aluminum radiators cheaper? Yes, copper is expensive so the OEM's and the after market have switched to aluminum. You probably have a better selection with aluminum.

You'll want to convert to a 22" core anyhow.
Click to expand...

Yeah check out the US radiator site it talks about the differences between copper and aluminum. There is a neat graphed comparision. They sell both. It's a good read. You'll spend at least $400 for the best radiator from them plus shipping.

I could not pass up $170 for a new aluminum rad with weld on brackets to fit the stock holes in the radator support.

Good luck.
 
C130 Chief said:
Is aluminum better? No, copper is a better conductor of heat. Are aluminum radiators repairable? Not really. Are aluminum radiators lighter? Maybe a little but you're gonna fill it with heavy old water. Are aluminum radiators cheaper? Yes, copper is expensive so the OEM's and the after market have switched to aluminum. You probably have a better selection with aluminum.

You'll want to convert to a 22" core anyhow.
Click to expand...

Do agree with almost all you are saying and we are on the same page Chief! I could care less about the weight and I think you and I feel the same about that. However even though copper is better than aluminum it uses lead to solder it, the lead reduces the overall effectiveness Vs the aluminum. I verified this with 4 sources today. But still it is litle diff to me. I live in WY and it is cold as hell here most of the time, but in the summer I still need to keep a 416 stroker cool, and I would think it makes more heat than a 273 or a 340 stocker right? Also aluminum does cool faster, but heats quicker too, but it is not as strong either. Cant have it all right... It is like running coolant etholynglycol. It does not make a car run cooler as some people think, just lubes the pump, prevents rust and helps freezing and raises the boing points.

Anyway, I guess I will have to spend the bucks and get a custom radiator made for the early A body. Did a lot of checking and all the cores are in the 22" size or larger, inlets and outlets can be moved no biggie, just not the old 19x17's can not find one. I could make it fit a 22" and yes even modify the core support to get more air across it altough I think the main issue is fluid capacity too not just air movement.

I spoke with several suppose to be experts for more input and they agreed that even it you go with the larger tubed aluminum radiators you then are better to also run a water pump drive fan than the electric fans since the larger tube sizes are more restictive. I was planning on a viscous fan anyway.

I looked into taking my old worn out core having it replaced with a copper 4 core, and new tanks (the Early A uses B body style tanks) they cost more but it is needed on this smaller radiator to keep capacity in check. The prices get up there in a hurry!

So I can get a custom unit made with new everything and go to a more modern effieceint design and have my brackets reused.

Either way it, is once again typical Early A body expensive and nobody makes anything that is a snap in cheap fit. I have delt with this for 34 years on this car. It is what it is, but I still love my Early A body.

Also thanks guys I really really appreciate all of our inputs, you all have great ideas and very good points. I do really like the 22" idea, and I still may get an old 22" core and have a custom unit made that I can fit in. So I would like to see pics if you guys have done this on your cars.

:icescrea:
 
If you follow the link that daves66valiant posted they list a radiator for a '65 Barracuda that is a 3 row "Desert cool" or something like that for a slant 6. I didn't double check the dimensions with the radiator I have but it looks like it would be a bolt in deal for a narrow opening like you & I have. I had cooling problems with my 273 but I think I have a 6 cyl. radiator in my car. The original was damaged in an accident & we pulled the only thing we coulfd find in the salvage yard that would fit. Lot's more early A's with a 6 than an 8 in the yard. I was able to keep the engine cool with the 6 cyl. radiator & a flex fan with large blades. The 3 row might do the job. Of course a 416 is a 416. Your call. I'll be watching to see your solution & how well it works for you.
 
djwhog said:
.

I spoke with several suppose to be experts for more input and they agreed that even it you go with the larger tubed aluminum radiators you then are better to also run a water pump drive fan than the electric fans since the larger tube sizes are more restictive. I was planning on a viscous fan anyway.

:icescrea:
Click to expand...

Can somebody explain this a bit more?
 
Well an electric fan not only does not run all the time but also will not move as much air. Now that being said there are largre fans and dual fans but becasue the size of this radiator space on the early A is so small the size of the electric fan compared to the engine driven fan is so much smaller and the blade pitch is less, this results in less air movement.

I know that there are some of these smaller fans that do spin very high RPM's and move a lot of air, but those ar very loud too. Also the fan only moves air when on, compared to a engine fan that is always on. So it seems that a clutch type fan is the hot ticket.

I think this is why you will see all bigger trucks like 3/4, 1 ton etc always use engine driven fans on all late models still today. You just can not get the same amount of air from those little plastic fans.

Picture a prop on a boat or plane, the larger the size, the more pitch the more air, but then to much and you start to consume a lot more power.

Hope this makes some sense?
 
So are any of you guys running the VISCOUS FAN on this setup with the later style water pump? The pump and this fan extend much more than the old factory fan and iron pump do. So I can tell I will need to eliminate the spacer that was on the 273, and am wondering just how tight it is going to be on which ever radiator I go with.

thanks!
 
djwhog said:
So are any of you guys running the VISCOUS FAN on this setup with the later style water pump? The pump and this fan extend much more than the old factory fan and iron pump do. So I can tell I will need to eliminate the spacer that was on the 273, and am wondering just how tight it is going to be on which ever radiator I go with.

thanks!
Click to expand...

When you start mixing parts, {1964/65 Car, 1970 era water pump, 1970 radiator}
its going to be trial and error.

The "viscous" clutch fan hubs are available at your local Auto parts store
in varying thickness, so you can find thinner/thicker as you need.

You can ask the counter person to bring you a couple to the counter to look at. Take them out of the box, and look at them from the side.

That what I had to do when trying to get a better cooling solution for my
427 big block in my '67 Camaro. I compared about 5 different clutch fan units,
till I founf the one I could use, with the Swap meet clutch fan I had bought at Carlisle.

On the Camaro trying to kool it down on the highway;
I added a shroud, a clutch fan, a Flow Kooler water pump,
and a High Flow 180f thermostat, a spoiler under the
valance panel {Chin spoiler some people call them}, and the car still was
getting to 215f on the highway, on a hot day after about 20 miles.
I ended up having to get a Big radiator for the car.

When is your engine getting too warm, is it in slow traffic, only,
or is it also when on the road. If you are only having a proble in stopped/ slow moving trafic you only need to add more airflow, like maybe as simple as a 12" to 14" pusher electirc fan in front of the radiator.

If your engine is running hot even at 40 mph or higher on the road, you need more cooling capacity, { a Bigger radiator}.

The 1970 and newer radiators are available at the local Advance Auto stores,
{Part America Kragen etc....} but, they May be a little taller than the early
'60's factory radiator,
I recall seeing a 1965 Barracuda at the drag strip a few years back, the the
metal under the radiator, had been cut on either side of the radiator and bent down to let the radiator sit lower, in order for it to fit.

All this stuff is basically try the part and see if it fits, I am lucky to know the
Advance Auto parts store personnel, and because i buy many of my parts there, they are willing to help me hunt stuff down.

Don't forget to say Thank You to a helpful counter person.
This reminds me, I should go buy some bagels or donuts for the local
store, as they helped me last weekend on my 1987 Dodge W150 project. :)

Lee/cavemanmoron
 
djwhog said:
Well an electric fan not only does not run all the time but also will not move as much air. Now that being said there are largre fans and dual fans but becasue the size of this radiator space on the early A is so small the size of the electric fan compared to the engine driven fan is so much smaller and the blade pitch is less, this results in less air movement.

I know that there are some of these smaller fans that do spin very high RPM's and move a lot of air, but those ar very loud too. Also the fan only moves air when on, compared to a engine fan that is always on. So it seems that a clutch type fan is the hot ticket.

I think this is why you will see all bigger trucks like 3/4, 1 ton etc always use engine driven fans on all late models still today. You just can not get the same amount of air from those little plastic fans.

Picture a prop on a boat or plane, the larger the size, the more pitch the more air, but then to much and you start to consume a lot more power.

Hope this makes some sense?
Click to expand...


someone out there makes a unit that is a variable speed control for electric fans. slows the fan down when the temps are lower and speeds it up as the temp climbs. ill see if i can find the link. it seems they were spendy though.
 
djwhog said:
Well an electric fan not only does not run all the time but also will not move as much air. Now that being said there are largre fans and dual fans but becasue the size of this radiator space on the early A is so small the size of the electric fan compared to the engine driven fan is so much smaller and the blade pitch is less, this results in less air movement.
Click to expand...

Well my current plan is to use two smaller 10" electric fans with my alum. radiator. I'll just have to see if this works. Right now I have about 2 1/4" of clearance between my water pump and radiator, so any type of viscous fan is out.

The brackets I had welded for my radiator were put on not thinking about clearance space - so for those that have to deal with any brackets being wlded for their radiator - keep this in mind.
 
jahsh said:
Well my current plan is to use two smaller 10" electric fans with my alum. radiator. I'll just have to see if this works. Right now I have about 2 1/4" of clearance between my water pump and radiator, so any type of viscous fan is out.

The brackets I had welded for my radiator were put on not thinking about clearance space - so for those that have to deal with any brackets being wlded for their radiator - keep this in mind.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is true. I set my aluminum radiator as far in as possible for clearance before getting the bracket welded on.
 
Well I started thinking about the clearance issues to.

Does anyone have the mopar performance Vicouse fan DCC-4120758. This is the once liste at Mancini, JEGS, summit it. I know it is 15" in diameter, not not sure what the depth is. My stock fan with 2 1/2" spacer was fine with the factory 2 row radiator that is 2" thick.

I think if I go with a custom Aluminum radiator they are going to be about 2 1/2" thick on the core. So I loose 1/2" there, then the later water pump style sticks out a good 1" more that the old iron pump. So I already lost 1 1/2"s but I will not need the spacer so I get 2 1'2" back, and the fan will bolt to the pulley on top of the water pump. So maybe this is a wash in size?

So if I do run into a lack of fan to radiator clearance, then instead of going with a custom radiator that is the same size as the 64 Dart 19"x17" I can fit a later A body 22"x17" unit if I cut the factory mounting off. This gives me about 2 1/2" more on each side and also would set the radiator back another 3/4" from the fan at the same time.

Also the space between the frame rails on these early A body's is 27". so one could even fit a B body radiator in. They come in 24 and 26" cores, but those cores are also thicker at 3-3 1/2" depends on cores and core sizes.

I do not think I need to go that large though. I live in a very cool climate and I think a modern better cooling radiator in either size the factory or later A body should be size.

So does anyone have this fan DCC-4120758 to tell me the depth?

thanks!

PS I also found this guy and many Mopar guys swear by him.
http://www.smithsradiator.com/mopar/index.html
 
If you search on Google, you get more results using "P" instead of "DCC"

Results 1 - 10 of about 234 for P4120758
Results 1 - 10 of about 15 for DCC-4120758

At any rate I looked for about 20 mins, the depth dimension is not shown,
call Jegs or Summit, and ask them, on their Tech Line.

You can also go to the local junkyard, pick & pull, wrecking yard,
whatever you call your local Car recycler, and get a used setup,
off almost any 1978 and newer Mopar, {Not front wheel drive Car ;) }
especially the old Diplomats, Cordobas etc.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, it will be try the part to see if it fits,
when your going Non-"Factory" upgrades. LOL. Thats part of the Fun. :)

Lee

djwhog said:
Well I started thinking about the clearance issues to.

Does anyone have the mopar performance Vicouse fan DCC-4120758. This is the once liste at Mancini, JEGS, summit it. I know it is 15" in diameter, not not sure what the depth is. My stock fan with 2 1/2" spacer was fine with the factory 2 row radiator that is 2" thick.

I think if I go with a custom Aluminum radiator they are going to be about 2 1/2" thick on the core. So I loose 1/2" there, then the later water pump style sticks out a good 1" more that the old iron pump. So I already lost 1 1/2"s but I will not need the spacer so I get 2 1'2" back, and the fan will bolt to the pulley on top of the water pump. So maybe this is a wash in size?

So if I do run into a lack of fan to radiator clearance, then instead of going with a custom radiator that is the same size as the 64 Dart 19"x17" I can fit a later A body 22"x17" unit if I cut the factory mounting off. This gives me about 2 1/2" more on each side and also would set the radiator back another 3/4" from the fan at the same time.

Also the space between the frame rails on these early A body's is 27". so one could even fit a B body radiator in. They come in 24 and 26" cores, but those cores are also thicker at 3-3 1/2" depends on cores and core sizes.

I do not think I need to go that large though. I live in a very cool climate and I think a modern better cooling radiator in either size the factory or later A body should be size.

So does anyone have this fan DCC-4120758 to tell me the depth?

thanks!

PS I also found this guy and many Mopar guys swear by him.
http://www.smithsradiator.com/mopar/index.html
Click to expand...
 
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